U.N.: Israeli airstrike kills UN observers

[JayDiddy]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/25/mideast.main/index.html

U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan said he was "deeply distressed" by the "apparently deliberate" strike.

"This coordinated artillery and aerial attack on a long-established and clearly marked U.N. post at Khiyam occurred despite personal assurances given to me by Prime Minister Ehud Olmert that U.N. positions would be spared Israeli fire," he said in a statement.

[Bekim...]

and dirty arabs flew a plane into the WTC... SO SHUT THE FUCK UP

[ShaE]

We really ought to get our asses together before we go jumping down others' throats. Between abu ghraib, torture scandals, gitmo, pitifully inadequate war planning, & MASSIVE federal disaster response incompetence...we are hardly in a position to go nitpicking Israel.

Targeting civilians or un sites is undoubtedly wrong, but we are HARDLY in the right in many areas right now. Pot should not call the kettle black.

[Bekim...]

i hope israel tears a part iran next.. just to do it

[admin]

why are there UN observers in Lebanon in the first place, what are they observing?

[ShaE]

why are there UN observers in Lebanon in the first place, what are they observing?
Well the UN needs accurate information...especially since they send peacekeeping forces & aid ( in some cases ) & the Security council meets etc etc. I don't really think it'd be wise of them to get their info via media...so I figure these "observers" report back to the un on the state of things/events. They have inspectors, guess they have "observers" too lol

And for the record , I think it's ridiculous to suggest Israel purposely targeted UN personnel. There would be NO POINT to that, it just doesn't make any sense.

[admin]

Well the UN needs accurate information...especially since they send peacekeeping forces & aid ( in some cases ) & the Security council meets etc etc. I don't really think it'd be wise of them to get their info via media...so I figure these "observers" report back to the un on the state of things/events. They have inspectors, guess they have "observers" too lol

And for the record , I think it's ridiculous to suggest Israel purposely targeted UN personnel. There would be NO POINT to that, it just doesn't make any sense.

I see, that makes sense now, thanks for the explaination.

[JayDiddy]

BBC is reporting this today: Israel troops 'ignored' UN plea

UN peacekeepers in south Lebanon contacted Israeli troops 10 times before an Israeli bomb killed four of them, an initial UN report says.

Bad situation.

[Defekted]

The UN peacekeepers have been on the Israeli/Lebanese border since 1978...it was a much bigger force and over time (mostly during the 18 year occupation) dwindled to a small number of troops stationed at a handful of UN outposts (clearly visible and all white with a HUGE BABY BLUE FLAG)....

The Israeli airforce is THE BEST IN THE WORLD, they can tell you which ass cheek they are going to hit before they hit it, so please.... dont even think for a second they didnt know what they were hitting......

[ShaE]

The UN peacekeepers have been on the Israeli/Lebanese border since 1978...it was a much bigger force and over time (mostly during the 18 year occupation) dwindled to a small number of troops stationed at a handful of UN outposts (clearly visible and all white with a HUGE BABY BLUE FLAG)....

The Israeli airforce is THE BEST IN THE WORLD, they can tell you which ass cheek they are going to hit before they hit it, so please.... dont even think for a second they didnt know what they were hitting......
For argument's sake, if highly specialized military never make mistakes/errors...how does friendly- fire happen?

[Bekim...]

The UN peacekeepers have been on the Israeli/Lebanese border since 1978...it was a much bigger force and over time (mostly during the 18 year occupation) dwindled to a small number of troops stationed at a handful of UN outposts (clearly visible and all white with a HUGE BABY BLUE FLAG)....

The Israeli airforce is THE BEST IN THE WORLD, they can tell you which ass cheek they are going to hit before they hit it, so please.... dont even think for a second they didnt know what they were hitting......

nah those dirty arabs that flew planes into the WTC were the BEST airforce in the world.

[Bekim...]

For argument's sake, if highly specialized military never make mistakes/errors...how does friendly- fire happen?

it happens of course it does

[Defekted]

For argument's sake, if highly specialized military never make mistakes/errors...how does friendly- fire happen?


Absolutely it happens,

but when you are talking about South Lebanon, barren farmlands, hilly terrain .... not a condensed metropolis by any means ... and the fact that there are only a HANDFUL of UN outposts, painted in white and ones the Israel knows very well where they are, because they occupied those lands for 18 years.... and when the UN made relentless statements to Israel to watch the UN team on the ground, contacting the IDF routinely, daily that there are active UN personel on the ground ...... well, forgive me if im skeptical.....

i mean, The israels know every 'civilian' house the hezbullah is firing from, according to them, so you want to tell me it doesnt know where the UNIFIL bases are? no chance

[gp1]

shae, the israeli military is notorious for firing on civilians. in fact, media in the area are more frightened by the israelis than any "terror" group. israel has a long history of firing on any group, civilian or otherwise, that reports critically of them.


http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2006/07/19/publiceye/entry1818343.shtml
they also just shot at FOX reports live on tv last week.

the UN has been pretty critical of the israel's action, as they have in the past. something like 250 UN peacekeepers in lebanon have been killed in the last 10 years, the majority of them at the hands of israelis. it's no coincidence that when someone speaks out against them, israeli soldiers are known to retaliate. this is why the UN suspects israel did this on purpose.

the editor of IPI had to send a letter to israel urging them to stop this behavior:

His Excellency Ariel Sharon
Prime Minister
Israel

Fax: (+ 972-2) 513 950

Vienna, 13 March 2002

Your Excellency,

The International Press Institute (IPI), the global network of editors, media executives and leading journalists, strongly condemns the Israeli army’s most recent attacks on journalists and media outlets in the city of Ramallah.

According to IPI’s sources, on 12 and 13 March the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) stormed Ramallah in its largest military offensive against Palestinians for 35 years. Supported by at least 150 tanks, bulldozers, artillery and the air force, the IDF laid siege to the city in an apparent punitive action against Palestinians following an escalation in violence between the two sides.

On 13 March, an Italian freelance photographer was shot and killed in Ramallah. According to several news reports, Raffaele Ciriello was hit six or seven times in the chest by Israeli gunfire and died shortly afterwards. On the same day, a French journalist, who was not immediately identified, was wounded in the leg by gunfire in Ramallah.

Ciriello had worked in a number of war zones around the world, including Afghanistan, Lebanon, Rwanda, Sierra Leone and the Yugoslavian province of Kosovo. He was the first foreign journalist to be killed in the 17-month conflict in Israel and the Palestinian territories. Since November 2000, four Palestinian journalists have also been killed and many others injured.

According to eyewitness accounts, on 12 March Israeli troops in Ramallah confiscated a vehicle belonging to a media organisation – an initial report said it belonged to Abu Dhabi Television – in an apparent attempt to disguise themselves and carry out military operations against Palestinians. The vehicle carried the word "TV" in large, clear markings.

On the same day, heavy Israeli machinegun fire shattered the windows of a Link Productions office at the City Inn Hotel in Ramallah, narrowly missing Franz Normann, the correspondent for the Austrian public broadcaster, ORF. Around 30 media workers from other media organisations were also present in the building. Fortunately, there were no injuries but gunfire destroyed an ABC camera after the fleeing crew left it on its tripod. Reports from the journalists present indicated that there were no ongoing hostilities in the area and the IDF was aware that journalists occupied the building, most of whom worked for foreign media organisations.

At least two of these press freedom violations appear to be part of a concerted strategy by the Israeli army to control reports on the recent surge in armed hostilities in the region. In addition, IPI believes they have been undertaken with a criminal disregard for civilian lives. Moreover, the apparent decision by the IDF to disguise some of its forces places journalists at risk. In the opinion of IPI the decision represents an intentional blurring of the line between combatants and non-combatants. For this reason, it is inexcusable.

IPI regards these crude attacks on journalists and media outlets and the abuse of media infrastructure as gross violations of everyone’s right to "seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers" as guaranteed by Article 19 of the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights. We call upon Your Excellency to ensure that the attacks on media outlets and journalists of all nationalities in the Palestinian territories are discontinued immediately and unconditionally, and that the perpetrators of such violations are punished. We further urge you to ensure that journalists in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories are allowed to carry out their profession without further harassment.

We thank you for your attention.

Johann P. Fritz
Director

[gp1]

oops

[Defekted]

No question,

Israel has been known and well documented for commiting acts that contradict international law. Countless, from the accident killing of journalists or peace keepers, to the accident torture of prisoners, to the accident execution of POWs, to the accident beating, humiliation and killing of civilians, to the accident .... ???

[JayDiddy]

One things for sure. More and more people here are now realizing what some of us already knew about Israel.

[gp1]

One things for sure. More and more people here are now realizing what some of us already knew about Israel.the ulitmate irony to me is all these people screaming foul about the kidnappings, even using it to justify the war. but, israel's high court has been condoned kidnapping people in their homes, without reason or trial, only to be held as "bargaining chips." it's interesting when one side does it, it's an act of war, but for the other side it's legally acceptable. it's these little things that i don't think the average person is aware of. dont get me wrong, it doesnt absolve hezbollah of fault, but if american media made these little things more public, it would help cast a better light on the situation.


http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGMDE150211998

Israel/Lebanon: Israeli Supreme Court endorses hostage-taking

The Israeli Supreme Court's ruling authorizing the Israeli Government to hold 10 Lebanese detainees as hostages to secure the release of Israeli servicemen missing in action is contemptible and explicitly legitimizes hostage-taking, Amnesty International declared today.

"The decision is intolerable", the organization said. "Those held as hostages include people who were only 16 when they were taken from their village and have now spent up to 11 years in detention, often secret and incommunicado. These are real people, not objects to be used as political pawns."

When armed groups take hostages, it is universally condemned. Yet the Supreme Court of Israel has now characterised human beings, who should have the right to security and freedom from arbitrary detention, as "bargaining chips" which can be exchanged in pursuit of a "vital interest of state".

The Supreme Court ruling, which covers 10 of the 21 Lebanese hostages held by Israeli authorities, was made in November last year, but only made public on Wednesday, reportedly after a long struggle by the lawyer whose original petition was made as far back as 1994.

The Israeli Government has acknowledged that the detainees themselves pose no threat to state security. Their continued detention therefore has no basis in international law.

"They kidnapped us from our villages, from our homes, with bread in our hands, not from battle, with guns in our hands," wrote one detainee to an Amnesty International group.

The families of the detainees are not allowed visits. In March 1996 the mother of Ghassan al-Dirani travelled from Lebanon to the prison hospital where her son, mentally and physically sick, was being held. After two days of pleading, she was still forbidden to see him. "I was in tears, the Red Cross delegate also," she writes. An Israel Defence Forces spokesperson said: "As long as there is no news of Ron Arad [an Israeli missing in action captured in 1986 by Amal, a Lebanese Shi'a militia], there will be no meetings with [Lebanese] detainees in Israel and no information about the detainees will be released."

In violation of the Geneva Conventions, ratified by Israel, two of the detainees, Mustafa al-Dirani and Shaykh 'Abd al-Karim 'Ubayd, have never had access to the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC).

At least 150 other Lebanese nationals are detained in Khiam Detention Centre, run by the South Lebanese Army, a militia allied to Israel in the part of South Lebanon occupied by Israel. Some have been there without charge, trial or any legal status since 1986. Since September 1997 they have had no access to the ICRC.

Amnesty International has long expressed its concern to the Israeli authorities over the way in which these detainees have been held. The organization is calling for the immediate and unconditional release of Lebanese hostages held in Israel.

[Defekted]

[QUOTE=gp1]the ulitmate irony to me is all these people screaming foul about the kidnappings, even using it to justify the war. but, israel's high court has been condoned kidnapping people in their homes, without reason or trial, only to be held as "bargaining chips." it's interesting when one side does it, it's an act of war, but for the other side it's legally acceptable. it's these little things that i don't think the average person is aware of. dont get me wrong, it doesnt absolve hezbollah of fault, but if american media made these little things more public, it would help cast a better light on the situation.


http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGMDE150211998

Israel/Lebanon: Israeli Supreme Court endorses hostage-taking

QUOTE]

well done!

[Bekim...]

one fucking mistake compared to all the terror acts commited by ARABS. Please guys you can't be for real, go read the list in my other thread and thats being conservative.

[Defekted]

one fucking mistake compared to all the terror acts commited by ARABS. Please guys you can't be for real, go read the list in my other thread and thats being conservative.

Its not one mistake Beck...its policy.... its the courts endorsing the practice of kidnapping, thats the essence of the hypocracy and double standards that you and others have no clue about (either by choice or by simply never being presented with the facts)

kidnappings and not complying with UN resolutions (which are two of the most prominent accusations against Hezbullah in this current war) are also in practice regularly with the Israelis.....

[Bekim...]

Its not one mistake Beck...its policy.... its the courts endorsing the practice of kidnapping, thats the essence of the hypocracy and double standards that you and others have no clue about (either by choice or by simply never being presented with the facts)

kidnappings and not complying with UN resolutions (which are two of the most prominent accusations against Hezbullah in this current war) are also in practice regularly with the Israelis.....


bro you should be ashamed of yourself to support these terrorists, then again i'm sure your whole country does.

[Defekted]

bro you should be ashamed of yourself to support these terrorists, then again i'm sure your whole country does.


Use the brakes man, your drunk posting.

[Bekim...]

Use the brakes man, your drunk posting.
lol I'm not drunk at all :yourcrazy
I just don't understand why you are so mad at Israel and don't say anything about the people that are hiding in your motherland and causing these problems.... we can go back and fourth sometimes I lose it so I'm going to tone it down

[Defekted]

lol I'm not drunk at all :yourcrazy
I just don't understand why you are so mad at Israel and don't say anything about the people that are hiding in your motherland and causing these problems.... we can go back and fourth sometimes I lose it so I'm going to tone it down

Bro, of course RIGHT NOW, THIS SECOND, I can only focus on Israels destruction of Lebanon,

and dont give me bullshit about hiding among civilians... THE ISRAELI BOMBING HAS BEEN RECKLESS AND CRIMINAL .... it has leveled the entire country, they have bombed things that have NOTHING to do with hezbullah..... not a yellow flag within 25 miles of some of the targets....they have leveled entire apartment buildings because there is a hezbullah OFFICE, meaning a administration office, meaning a room full of documents of shit from dental records, to who knows what... for what? the building just collapsed and killed 25 people! bro its sickening, there are ways to conduct a war, to conduct bombings, the Israelis know where the military areas are for Hezb.... no need to level buildings in south beirut (way out of Katusha rocket range).... its sadistic man.... and thats why I choose not to harp about the 2 israeli soldiers kidnapped.... its about the scale of things man, and this is outrageous.

[Bekim...]

Bro, of course RIGHT NOW, THIS SECOND, I can only focus on Israels destruction of Lebanon,

and dont give me bullshit about hiding among civilians... THE ISRAELI BOMBING HAS BEEN RECKLESS AND CRIMINAL .... it has leveled the entire country, they have bombed things that have NOTHING to do with hezbullah..... not a yellow flag within 25 miles of some of the targets....they have leveled entire apartment buildings because there is a hezbullah OFFICE, meaning a administration office, meaning a room full of documents of shit from dental records, to who knows what... for what? the building just collapsed and killed 25 people! bro its sickening, there are ways to conduct a war, to conduct bombings, the Israelis know where the military areas are for Hezb.... no need to level buildings in south beirut (way out of Katusha rocket range).... its sadistic man.... and thats why I choose not to harp about the 2 israeli soldiers kidnapped.... its about the scale of things man, and this is outrageous.


BRO IN 58 YEARS ISRAEL HAS NOT ATTACKED AN ARAB COUNTRY.... IN THAT TIME DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY TIMES ISRAEL HAS BEEN ATTTACKED????. BOMBING IS RECKLESS WAR IS WAR THERE IS NO OTHER WAY, WHY DO YOU HAVE TO PISS ME OFF?

[Defekted]

BRO IN 58 YEARS ISRAEL HAS NOT ATTACKED AN ARAB COUNTRY.... IN THAT TIME DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY TIMES ISRAEL HAS BEEN ATTTACKED????. BOMBING IS RECKLESS WAR IS WAR THERE IS NO OTHER WAY, WHY DO YOU HAVE TO PISS ME OFF?

becuase it makes me sleep better at night :yousuck

[Defekted]

BRO IN 58 YEARS ISRAEL HAS NOT ATTACKED AN ARAB COUNTRY.... IN THAT TIME DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY TIMES ISRAEL HAS BEEN ATTTACKED????. BOMBING IS RECKLESS WAR IS WAR THERE IS NO OTHER WAY, WHY DO YOU HAVE TO PISS ME OFF?

of course they have been attacked...

they were attacked by hezbullah, hezbullah started all this, it was unprovoked...

everyone in the world is in agreement about that....

but EVERYONE in the world (except for US and Israel) also is in agreement that the response has been disproportionate and a ceasefire needs to be in place immediately ...

two people can be wrong in part during a conflict.... its possible, i swear to you

[Bekim...]

of course they have been attacked...

they were attacked by hezbullah, hezbullah started all this, it was unprovoked...

everyone in the world is in agreement about that....

but EVERYONE in the world (except for US and Israel) also is in agreement that the response has been disproportionate and a ceasefire needs to be in place immediately ...

two people can be wrong in part during a conflict.... its possible, i swear to you

NO CEASE FIRE I HOPE THEY KEEP GOING HARDER AND HARDER, BLAME HEZBOLLAH DONT BE A PUSSY ... HEZBOLLAH RUINED YOU

[Micha]

NO CEASE FIRE I HOPE THEY KEEP GOING HARDER AND HARDER, BLAME HEZBOLLAH DONT BE A PUSSY ... HEZBOLLAH RUINED YOU

Sure blame hezbollah but dont stop there beck.......

[Bekim...]

Sure blame hezbollah but dont stop there beck.......

I DONT I BLAME DUMB STUPID AMERICANS LIKE YOU THATS WHO I BLAME

[Defekted]

NO CEASE FIRE I HOPE THEY KEEP GOING HARDER AND HARDER, BLAME HEZBOLLAH DONT BE A PUSSY ... HEZBOLLAH RUINED YOU

Far from a pussy,

its that I have a brain to go along with my balls.... its a nice cocktail, you should try that mix.

[TrippinFace101]

why are there UN observers in Lebanon in the first place, what are they observing?

Yeah good point prob eating popcorn like this a movie and shit . A slaughter watching hezbollah die

[Bekim...]

Far from a pussy,

its that I have a brain to go along with my balls.... its a nice cocktail, you should try that mix.

so why do you bitch like one?
hezbollah started this shit now ISRAEL AND AMERICA is going to finish.. its war buddy boy you should try that sometime

[ShaE]

Absolutely it happens,

but when you are talking about South Lebanon, barren farmlands, hilly terrain .... not a condensed metropolis by any means ... and the fact that there are only a HANDFUL of UN outposts, painted in white and ones the Israel knows very well where they are, because they occupied those lands for 18 years.... and when the UN made relentless statements to Israel to watch the UN team on the ground, contacting the IDF routinely, daily that there are active UN personel on the ground ...... well, forgive me if im skeptical.....

i mean, The israels know every 'civilian' house the hezbullah is firing from, according to them, so you want to tell me it doesnt know where the UNIFIL bases are? no chance


Ok, step two...your theory on why Israel would purpose fire upon UN outposts???
...that's different than just "civilian" lebanese...entirely as crass as that may sound. I'm not being condescending, I'm honestly asking...why in god's name you'd think THEY'D think it's a strategically beneficial move.

[ShaE]

shae, the israeli military is notorious for firing on civilians. in fact, media in the area are more frightened by the israelis than any "terror" group. israel has a long history of firing on any group, civilian or otherwise, that reports critically of them.


I didn't say they didn't...I meant what point would purposely targeting UN outposts serve? That's different than firing into civilian populated areas- the UN is a neutral party, a global institution...not Lebanese, or comprised of terrorists. Israel does NOT have a history of attacking UN forces or areas...nor do they really strike me as retarded enough to start now, and for what purpose? :hmmm

[Bekim...]

ATTICA ATTICA



http://www.paulmcelligott.com/images/dog_day_afternoon.jpg

[ShaE]

No question,

Israel has been known and well documented for commiting acts that contradict international law.

So have we, BLATANTLY, but often it's for a reason that makes SENSE. Not necessarily a JUSTIFIED one though. Torturing in abu ghraib violates on many levels...but we did it, and it , in some way MADE sense. ( Or you can see the twisted logic ). What kind of sense would attacking the un outpost make? Shed light please.

[ShaE]

One things for sure. More and more people here are now realizing what some of us already knew about Israel.
That they really won't be fucked with? For better or worse, they're consistent and under constant pressure.

How about people pay more attention to what we DIDN'T know about how fucked up WE ARE...and how we have jackasses running the show, and most of the stupid country is just fine w/ that as long as gays can't marry and doctors can't fuck w/ embryonic goo. Who wants to worry about national security..Iran, Korea, etc etc when we have bigger fish to fry...like GAY ppl marrying :pullhair Less concern about how fucked up other people are please, and more focus on us.

[Defekted]

Ok, step two...your theory on why Israel would purpose fire upon UN outposts???
...that's different than just "civilian" lebanese...entirely as crass as that may sound. I'm not being condescending, I'm honestly asking...why in god's name you'd think THEY'D think it's a strategically beneficial move.

one logical thinking person would think that, you, me, and the whole world...... but it happens......

10 years ago.... "grapes of wrath" operation in lebanon by Israel.... bombing campaign on hezbollah sites.... what happened? Israel bombed a UN center for refugees, killing 150 civilians......

why do these things happen Shae? not sure exactly, but they happen, everytime..... careless or deliberate? one will never know.... but one thing is for sure.... it will never be proven to be deliberate.... EVER..... and thats convienent. So sending fuck you's to a institution that has continuely condemed you can be said loud and clear by a missle......

[Defekted]

and that makes just as much sense (in a twisted logic sorta way) as Abu Ghraib

[ShaE]

the ulitmate irony to me is all these people screaming foul about the kidnappings, even using it to justify the war. but, israel's high court has been condoned kidnapping people in their homes, without reason or trial, only to be held as "bargaining chips." it's interesting when one side does it, it's an act of war, but for the other side it's legally acceptable. .

The world is full of hypocrisy, but some of it is necessary. Is it hypocritical to chastise Iran and other nations by attempting to deny them the ability to develop nuclear technology..when we have STOCKPILES of it? Sure it is.

Do as I say, not as I do- ultimate hypocrisy, but what's the alternative? It's entirely appropriate...you cannot allow some groups to have such things. So yes, somethings happen where one side allows it under certain conditions, but not under others. No doubt Israel has condoned kidnapping...but saying this incident is just about 2 kidnapped soldiers is like saying wwI was all about the archduke getting killed- bullshit. It's the culmination of a multitude of things. So the kidnapping isn't an "act of war" it was a declaration of it...and Israel took the bait. Hizbollah knew EXACTLY what they were doing, and they definitely had the say so from Iran. It was no mistake that war has erupted..I don't buy for a second they thought nabbing those soldiers would result in ANYTHING less than war. Justifiably so in my opinion.

[Defekted]

The world is full of hypocrisy, but some of it is necessary. Is it hypocritical to chastise Iran and other nations by attempting to deny them the ability to develop nuclear technology..when we have STOCKPILES of it? Sure it is.

Do as I say, not as I do- ultimate hypocrisy, but what's the alternative? It's entirely appropriate...you cannot allow some groups to have such things. So yes, somethings happen where one side allows it under certain conditions, but not under others. No doubt Israel has condoned kidnapping...but saying this incident is just about 2 kidnapped soldiers is like saying wwI was all about the archduke getting killed- bullshit. It's the culmination of a multitude of things. So the kidnapping isn't an "act of war" it was a declaration of it...and Israel took the bait. Hizbollah knew EXACTLY what they were doing, and they definitely had the say so from Iran. It was no mistake that war has erupted..I don't buy for a second they thought nabbing those soldiers would result in ANYTHING less than war. Justifiably so in my opinion.

and that leaves us to square 1.... one can have his cake and eat it to, the other cant..... but one thing is for sure...Israel isnt going to defeat Hezbullah, unless they kill every last shiite in Lebanon.... so the justified war aint gonna get Israel shit.

one mans opinion

[ShaE]

one logical thinking person would think that, you, me, and the whole world...... but it happens......

10 years ago.... "grapes of wrath" operation in lebanon by Israel.... bombing campaign on hezbollah sites.... what happened? Israel bombed a UN center for refugees, killing 150 civilians......

why do these things happen Shae? not sure exactly, but they happen, everytime..... careless or deliberate? one will never know.... but one thing is for sure.... it will never be proven to be deliberate.... EVER..... and thats convienent. So sending fuck you's to a institution that has continuely condemed you can be said loud and clear by a missle......

I think it's fairly safe to say that most agree Israel is a military powerhouse...VERY smart. Even diplomatically, very astute...it's VERY hard for me to wrap my mind around why they would send a "fuck you" to the UN at this time, in this way. I can, however, accept that they will kill civilians on the enemy side, or accept such casualties as they happen. I believe they're ruthless in their defense...that I entirely accept. But knowingly go " the fuk w/ the un" and purposely bomb them? To what end? One thing they are NOT is careless or stupid- there would have to be a direct purpose or a complete mistake, inadvertent. Bombing a refugee area...wipes out civilians of the enemy side. Fucked up? yes...do I think they'd do it yea... but what of this outpost? What was there? I go back to the article and it seems it was entirely UN workers, observers. That makes ZERO sense:

Ayalon called Annan's statement "outrageous," while Israel's U.N. ambassador, Dan Gillerman, said he, too, was "deeply distressed" that Annan alleged that the strike was deliberate.

"I am surprised at these premature and erroneous assertions made by the secretary-general, who while demanding an investigation, has already issued its conclusions," Gillerman said in a statement.


Label me pro-Israel but I'm trying to be logical here. What's more likely in my mind...crossfire, un workers/outpost get caught in the middle of something..or Israel intentionally bombs un observers as the world watches...for quite literally, NO strategic gain. :shrugger

[ShaE]

and that leaves us to square 1.... one can have his cake and eat it to, the other cant..... but one thing is for sure...Israel isnt going to defeat Hezbullah, unless they kill every last shiite in Lebanon.... so the justified war aint gonna get Israel shit.

one mans opinion

War won't get any side here shit will it? Israel won't kill every last shi'ite in Lebanon same way nobody will ever, literally, wipe Israel off the map. (Save an all out NUKE war :rolleyes: )- neither side can accomplish their ultimate goal by fighting. So basically, this is a big bitchfit that can accomplish next to nothing for anyone in the grand scheme of things.

Excellent article in this week's Time and Newsweek. Bottom line, diplomacy will have to settle this. Fighting hasn't and cannot. Either it's done diplomatically, lines are drawn, compromises made...or the fighting will continue forever for absolutely no reason other than posturing and retaliation.

[ShaE]

On another note, not to condone deliberate targeting of civilians, but we have to realize how the terms of warfare have changed. In Vietnam women were strapped w/ bombs, kids... etc. Civilian casualties were high b/c soldiers had to be suspect of everyone. Terrorism nowadays, guerrilla warfare..urban warfare...it raises the stakes and risks for all civilians. "killing civilians" cannot be viewed the same way it used to be when battles were fought on battlefields, or in trenches..NO civilians in sight. then, your actions would've been DELIBERATE as you could clearly tell the difference between a nazi soldier and a civilian in the french countryside.


times have changed. this doesn't excuse targeting innocent people, but we have to accept how the scope of warfare is DRASTICALLY different and as a result it's not so unlikely, or so shocking that civilian casualties are going to be MUCH much higher.

[Micha]

Bottom line, diplomacy will have to settle this. Fighting hasn't and cannot. Either it's done diplomatically, lines are drawn, compromises made...or the fighting will continue forever for absolutely no reason other than posturing and retaliation.

Thank you.

[Defekted]

[COLOR="Indigo"]Label me pro-Israel but I'm trying to be logical here. What's more likely in my mind...crossfire, un workers/outpost get caught in the middle of something..or Israel intentionally bombs un observers as the world watches...for quite literally, NO strategic gain. :shrugger

it was a refugee center that was under the blue flag in a white building...same as the outpost....

you explain to me how you can put it to logic when presented the facts....

UN military post in the village of Khiyam, a village I have visite before, nothing next to the UN post, its on a hill, kinda above the town...... and its far from condensed....

the israel army knows the area well (so well in fact since they have had boots on the ground in that village for 18 years) and has maps of the locations of ALL unifil bases......

israel starts to shell that town, trying to soften the resistence of the town.... the unifil officers call in not once, not twice, but twelve times ... the last one coming an hour before the hit.....

Israel bombs the place with one shell and two missiles......

no reported hezbullah fire that day ... (some the previous days reported by unifil)


Shae, ill put it simple to you....

The IDF is sooooo fucking arrogant that they think they can get away with murder, and they are getting away with murder.......

like many of you said...its a war...shit happens..... its a catchy disclaimer

[Defekted]

War won't get any side here shit will it? Israel won't kill every last shi'ite in Lebanon same way nobody will ever, literally, wipe Israel off the map. (Save an all out NUKE war :rolleyes: )- neither side can accomplish their ultimate goal by fighting. So basically, this is a big bitchfit that can accomplish next to nothing for anyone in the grand scheme of things.

Excellent article in this week's Time and Newsweek. Bottom line, diplomacy will have to settle this. Fighting hasn't and cannot. Either it's done diplomatically, lines are drawn, compromises made...or the fighting will continue forever for absolutely no reason other than posturing and retaliation.

i agree

[Defekted]

On another note, not to condone deliberate targeting of civilians, but we have to realize how the terms of warfare have changed. In Vietnam women were strapped w/ bombs, kids... etc. Civilian casualties were high b/c soldiers had to be suspect of everyone. Terrorism nowadays, guerrilla warfare..urban warfare...it raises the stakes and risks for all civilians. "killing civilians" cannot be viewed the same way it used to be when battles were fought on battlefields, or in trenches..NO civilians in sight. then, your actions would've been DELIBERATE as you could clearly tell the difference between a nazi soldier and a civilian in the french countryside.


times have changed. this doesn't excuse targeting innocent people, but we have to accept how the scope of warfare is DRASTICALLY different and as a result it's not so unlikely, or so shocking that civilian casualties are going to be MUCH much higher.

i dont agree

[ShaE]

i dont agree
You don't agree that the face of warfare in modern times is different?
You don't think that terrorist factions operating out of cities, covertly has changed how we have to approach things? You cannot possibly compare Vietnam to ww2, or the war in Iraq to wars pre Vietnam. It's A WORLD apart. Standing and facing your enemy...facing an organized army..is ENTIRELY different than waging war on an UNSEEN enemy. Or an enemy that is operating out of small cells, or groups...not a formal military.

You're going to tell me a war fought on a battlefield between two recognized, civilized armies poses as much threat to the civilian population as a urban, guerrilla war fought against small terrorist groups? rebel groups? factions? NOT sanctioned by formal gov'ts and NOT adhering to any type of war code?

Bottom line...the war in Iraq and many of the wars today are being fought in cities, insurgents hiding in homes...operating in scattered fashion, ambushes, hidden bombs AMONGST civilians...USING civilians AS bombs... compare that to historic warfare and you tell me you don't agree that civlian casualties will be higher NO DOUBT, NO QUESTION, no way around it.

( Do that tomorrow b/c I know you're done for the night lol ):heythere

[Micha]

You don't agree that the face of warfare in modern times is different?
You don't think that terrorist factions operating out of cities, covertly has changed how we have to approach things? You cannot possibly compare Vietnam to ww2, or the war in Iraq to wars pre Vietnam. It's A WORLD apart. Standing and facing your enemy...facing an organized army..is ENTIRELY different than waging war on an UNSEEN enemy. Or an enemy that is operating out of small cells, or groups...not a formal military.

You're going to tell me a war fought on a battlefield between two recognized, civilized armies poses as much threat to the civilian population as a urban, guerrilla war fought against small terrorist groups? rebel groups? factions? NOT sanctioned by formal gov'ts and NOT adhering to any type of war code?

Bottom line...the war in Iraq and many of the wars today are being fought in cities, insurgents hiding in homes...operating in scattered fashion, ambushes, hidden bombs AMONGST civilians...USING civilians AS bombs... compare that to historic warfare and you tell me you don't agree that civlian casualties will be higher NO DOUBT, NO QUESTION, no way around it.

( Do that tomorrow b/c I know you're done for the night lol ):heythere

Justifying the death of innocent people still doesnt sit well with me. :disgusted. Im not convinced...nextt...

[ShaE]

Justifying the death of innocent people still doesnt sit well with me. :disgusted. Im not convinced...nextt...
Where did I attempt to justify it? I said quite clearly it was not JUSTIFIED but inevitable that civilian casualites are going to rise.

Accepting cause/effect as reality is not the same as justification :hmmm

[Micha]

Where did I attempt to justify it? I said quite clearly it was not JUSTIFIED but inevitable that civilian casualites are going to rise.

Accepting cause/effect as reality is not the same as justification :hmmm

sounds like justification to me but regardless im not buying it

[admin]

Why is Micha in current events anyone, her posts last week totally proved her ignorant.

[Bekim...]

Why is Micha in current events anyone, her posts last week totally proved her ignorant.

well this week she thinks hezbollah and hamas are the good guys and israel is wrong for attacking them, just to keep you updated.

[Micha]

well for one, im interested in the topics. And are u referring to the comments i made about isreal, cuz i already said that was ignorant and also btw said at a time where i hadnt turned on a tv or read a newspaper and didnt realize what was going on before i gave my opinion. Hightide made a thread about supporting israel and i gave the opposite view (cuz thats just how i am) to spark the conversation. It sounded ignorant but i think i have shown that thats not really how i feel.

[ShaE]

sounds like justification to me but regardless im not buying it
You can "not buy it " all you want, it's reality.

Justifying something means you're saying it's RIGHT, explaining a cause and effect relationship has NOTHING to do w/ right or wrong. It's (a) happened and (b) happened as a result of (a.) Right/wrong never comes into play.


Example...our enemies used to fight us through declared war, Germany let's say on a battlefied, soldier vs soldier..in PLAIN view. Now? How does our enemy fight? Say, al qaeda?

Through terrorism. Who do they target? Civilians. How? Sneak attacks, SUICIDE bombings... not declared war. Where? Cities...transporation, etc. Where are they ? Hidden, can't find em.

Hmm...so it's FACT the type of " war" we are fighting now against terror is NOTHING like the wars we've fought in the past. So now think, do you THINK more of us civilians are in danger of dying NOW that WE are the targets, our enemy is hidden, and willing to DIE to take us out? OBVIOUSLY :rolleyes: That's not JUSTIFYING it, not saying it's "right", saying it's how IT IS.

[Micha]

well this week she thinks hezbollah and hamas are the good guys and israel is wrong for attacking them, just to keep you updated.

No i dont beck thats not right man.

[Bekim...]

No i dont beck thats not right man.


yea you do

[Bekim...]

well for one, im interested in the topics. And are u referring to the comments i made about isreal, cuz i already said that was ignorant and also btw said at a time where i hadnt turned on a tv or read a newspaper and didnt realize what was going on before i gave my opinion. Hightide made a thread about supporting israel and i gave the opposite view (cuz thats just how i am) to spark the conversation. It sounded ignorant but i think i have shown that thats not really how i feel.

quick ch 53 ryan seacrest is on!

[Micha]

You can "not buy it " all you want, it's reality.

Justifying something means you're saying it's RIGHT, explaining a cause and effect relationship has NOTHING to do w/ right or wrong. It's (a) happened and (b) happened as a result of (a.) Right/wrong never comes into play.


Example...our enemies used to fight us through declared war, Germany let's say on a battlefied, soldier vs soldier..in PLAIN view. Now? How does our enemy fight? Say, al qaeda?

Through terrorism. Who do they target? Civilians. How? Sneak attacks, SUICIDE bombings... not declared war. Where? Cities...transporation, etc. Where are they ? Hidden, can't find em.

Hmm...so it's FACT the type of " war" we are fighting now against terror is NOTHING like the wars we've fought in the past. So now think, do you THINK more of us civilians are in danger of dying NOW that WE are the targets, our enemy is hidden, and willing to DIE to take us out? OBVIOUSLY :rolleyes: That's not JUSTIFYING it, not saying it's "right", saying it's how IT IS.

I know the difference between stating the facts and justifying something.

[ShaE]

I know the difference between stating the facts and justifying something.
Alright, then you clearly understand I in no way think killing civilians is justified. I just accept that it is an inevitable result of terrorism as the "new" way of waging war by many groups. A very unfortunate one.

[admin]

well for one, im interested in the topics. And are u referring to the comments i made about isreal, cuz i already said that was ignorant and also btw said at a time where i hadnt turned on a tv or read a newspaper and didnt realize what was going on before i gave my opinion. Hightide made a thread about supporting israel and i gave the opposite view (cuz thats just how i am) to spark the conversation. It sounded ignorant but i think i have shown that thats not really how i feel.

so you watched tv for a week and now you no longer ignorant?

[Micha]

Alright, then you clearly understand I in no way think killing civilians is justified. I just accept that it is an inevitable result of modern warfare/terrorism. A very unfortunate one.

Yes and Unfortunately yes

[Bekim...]

Micha ch 53 - seacreast is on hurry quick!

[Micha]

so you watched tv for a week and now you no longer ignorant?

No.

[Bekim...]

No.
http://www.divinedesign.org/atf/cf/%7B84C45EDE-6477-4C21-BDA2-43A42CCE8EA4%7D/Ryan%20Seacrest%20Photo%20for%20web.JPG

[admin]

On another note, not to condone deliberate targeting of civilians, but we have to realize how the terms of warfare have changed. In Vietnam women were strapped w/ bombs, kids... etc. Civilian casualties were high b/c soldiers had to be suspect of everyone. Terrorism nowadays, guerrilla warfare..urban warfare...it raises the stakes and risks for all civilians. "killing civilians" cannot be viewed the same way it used to be when battles were fought on battlefields, or in trenches..NO civilians in sight. then, your actions would've been DELIBERATE as you could clearly tell the difference between a nazi soldier and a civilian in the french countryside.


times have changed. this doesn't excuse targeting innocent people, but we have to accept how the scope of warfare is DRASTICALLY different and as a result it's not so unlikely, or so shocking that civilian casualties are going to be MUCH much higher.

true!

[Micha]

I used my brain and thought about it after i made those comments and realized that is not how i really feel that is all im saying.

[Micha]

lmfaooo beck what does ryan seacrest have to do with me???

[ShaE]

I used my brain and thought about it after i made those comments and realized that is not how i really feel that is all im saying.
That's more than most around here would admit . Credit where it's due I guess lol

[Bekim...]

lmfaooo beck what does ryan seacrest have to do with me???
http://barefoot.provocateuse.com/images/photos/ryan_seacrest_01.jpg

[admin]

I used my brain and thought about it after i made those comments and realized that is not how i really feel that is all im saying.

ok, I give you credit for that too. At least you took the time and learned about the situation, unlike most people that have no clue whats going on. I apologize
if I sounded too harsh.

[ShaE]

(for the most part) we have such a civil, nice bunch in here :heart lol

[admin]

(for the most part) we have such a civil, nice bunch in here :heart lol

:heart is in the air

[Bekim...]

(for the most part) we have such a civil, nice bunch in here :heart lol

like me! im nice and civil right?!

[admin]

like me! im nice and civil right?!

I think most people that never met in you in person might think you're nuts.

[Bekim...]

I think most people that never met in you in person might think you're nuts.
LOL :LOL

[Micha]

ok, I give you credit for that too. At least you took the time and learned about the situation, unlike most people that have no clue whats going on. I apologize
if I sounded too harsh.

thanx Dmitry i still have a lot to learn :heart

[ShaE]

like me! im nice and civil right?!
:friends I think so, some may disagree lol

[ShaE]

I think most people that never met in you in person might think you're nuts.
I think everyone who hasn't met me thinks I am, and everyone who has KNOWS I am... :shuffle

[Defekted]

You don't agree that the face of warfare in modern times is different?
You don't think that terrorist factions operating out of cities, covertly has changed how we have to approach things? You cannot possibly compare Vietnam to ww2, or the war in Iraq to wars pre Vietnam. It's A WORLD apart. Standing and facing your enemy...facing an organized army..is ENTIRELY different than waging war on an UNSEEN enemy. Or an enemy that is operating out of small cells, or groups...not a formal military.

You're going to tell me a war fought on a battlefield between two recognized, civilized armies poses as much threat to the civilian population as a urban, guerrilla war fought against small terrorist groups? rebel groups? factions? NOT sanctioned by formal gov'ts and NOT adhering to any type of war code?

Bottom line...the war in Iraq and many of the wars today are being fought in cities, insurgents hiding in homes...operating in scattered fashion, ambushes, hidden bombs AMONGST civilians...USING civilians AS bombs... compare that to historic warfare and you tell me you don't agree that civlian casualties will be higher NO DOUBT, NO QUESTION, no way around it.

( Do that tomorrow b/c I know you're done for the night lol ):heythere


Man I was tired this morning, NO MORE POSTING TILL MIDNIGHT FOR ME ANYMORE, LOL.

As for your post, of course I agree that warfare has drastically changed, it changes with the advancment of technology and with the times.... to compare the Iraq war to WWII isnt right, what you should do is compare the Iraq war or this Lebanese war to any geurilla war (which have been around since the beginning of time) whether its the Cuban revolution, vietnam, algeria, east timor, and the Irish war of independence..... if you want you can go as far back as george washington.....you are going to get this whenever you have a military resistence against a FAR SUPERIOR army...... its is probably one of the most effective ways to fight........contributers range from Che Guevara to Michael Collins......

depending on the setting it can come from the jungles or an urban city....

so these terms of warfare has always been around......

[Defekted]

Also, even with the "PROPER" wars you mention, MASSIVE civilian loss occurs,

WWII wasnt always fought in nice open fields where it was mano-y-mano ..... the allies carpet bombed Dresden that had ZERO military targets, killing tens of thousands of civilians.... i just got back from Germany, and every single city was up to 80% destroyed by the War......

[Defekted]

The days of colonialism, imperialism are coming to an end.... all occupying forces should also come to an end (most importantly in the middle east).... as long as they are still in effect, you are going to get more terrorism, geurilla wars, and death..... like I said, terrorism to us is freedom fighting to another.

depends the lens your looking through.

[ShaE]

Man I was tired this morning, NO MORE POSTING TILL MIDNIGHT FOR ME ANYMORE, LOL.

As for your post, of course I agree that warfare has drastically changed, it changes with the advancment of technology and with the times.... to compare the Iraq war to WWII isnt right, what you should do is compare the Iraq war or this Lebanese war to any geurilla war (which have been around since the beginning of time) whether its the Cuban revolution, vietnam, algeria, east timor, and the Irish war of independence..... if you want you can go as far back as george washington.....you are going to get this whenever you have a military resistence against a FAR SUPERIOR army...... its is probably one of the most effective ways to fight........contributers range from Che Guevara to Michael Collins......

depending on the setting it can come from the jungles or an urban city....

so these terms of warfare has always been around......
I didn't say guerrilla warfare is NEW , or that it "hasn't been around". Just that it's new to the world, as the prominent type of war right now and that bears serious consequences for civilians. Yes, technology changes war, but that really doesn't apply in the sense I'm saying it's changed. I'm saying in the war on terror, or wars waged BY terrorists..civilians are THE TARGETS, their tactics are covert, and they run suicide missions. Those factors make fighting them an entirely different type of war FOR US, and for any other major power. We cannot fight how we're accustomed to fighting, b/c our enemy is not engaging us like wars past & they don't think the same/ have the same goals. We're not fighting "over" something that can be clearly defined.

Of course much more inferior forces have had to resort to guerrilla tactics when facing a stronger enemy ( militia did it in our Revolutionary war to an extent). That's entirely different. We aren't fighting this type of war now b/c we're inferior, we're fighting it b/c the targets, type, and enemies have changed and made it this way.

When you target civilians as opposed to enemy military forces, and you wage war in cities with hidden targets as your goal...throw in some suicide bombers..more "innocent" people are bound to be hurt. As opposed to one army vs another army under clear terms of warfare. I just read that in July 100 Iraqi civilians were killed PER DAY as a result of sectarian violence and the insurgents. That's what happens w/ an insurgency...and infighting. Shooting from homes, carbombs, ambushes, etc.

[ShaE]

Also, even with the "PROPER" wars you mention, MASSIVE civilian loss occurs,

WWII wasnt always fought in nice open fields where it was mano-y-mano ..... the allies carpet bombed Dresden that had ZERO military targets, killing tens of thousands of civilians.... i just got back from Germany, and every single city was up to 80% destroyed by the War......
I wouldn't call war "proper" but there are more civilized ways of going about it, and there are rules/ laws that attempt to minimize/ civilize the damage done.

Those are out the goddamn window now. Of course the world wars weren't neat, or fun, and of course there was civilian loss. Never said there wasn't...I said the face of warfare on a LARGE scale has shifted and as a result civilians are targeted more, in the line of fire more, and will consequently DIE more.

It's just a matter of numbers. Tons of brits died in Germany's blitzkreig , tons of Russians died, tons of EVERYONE died...but the war was not fought w/ all of the nazis operating out of tiny cells, hiding in homes. There was a WAR FRONT, there was an ARMY, there were commanders whom you could communicate with, locate, and eventually negotiate with. POW's were taken/released. You cannot even compare that to the war on terror or how we're forced to deal with those who wage "terror" war with us. German civilians weren't our targets, we didn't run trucks into their towns and blow them up purposely on suicide missions.

Today? I don't see osama around anywhere, on any "front" w/ his troops, giving terms/conditions of surrender. You have to ferret them out, fight bit by bit...and often there are PLENTY of innocents standing inbetween.

[ShaE]

like I said, terrorism to us is freedom fighting to another.

.
Terrorism is the MEANS by which they fight, not the reason. You can't call terrorism "freedom fighting". They may be fighting for their "freedom" in their minds, but terror is just the TYPE of war they're using, their tool, and that's bullshit. I'm all for fighting for what you want for your country, but not by those means.

[Defekted]

When you target civilians as opposed to enemy military forces, and you wage war in cities with hidden targets as your goal...throw in some suicide bombers..more "innocent" people are bound to be hurt. As opposed to one army vs another army under clear terms of warfare. I just read that in July 100 Iraqi civilians were killed PER DAY as a result of sectarian violence and the insurgents. That's what happens w/ an insurgency...and infighting. Shooting from homes, carbombs, ambushes, etc.

every conflict is different, and each needs to be talked about is a unique way...whats happening in Iraq right now is straight up civil war, Iraqi vs Iraqi (with our forces in the middle doing nothing productive - time to bounce) .... in Lebanon, Israel is fighting against Hezbullah, Hezbullah has killed more soldiers than civilians in this conflict (2:1), and in the past 6 years they have killed less Israeli civilians than the bombay bombing in india last week.... while Israel has killed tons of civilians in bombings of INFRASTRUCTURE (not reacting to a shot or missle) .... they are bombing fro Tripoli in the North to the nearest village on the border (like the Israeli general said, no where in Lebanon is safe).....not quite "in the line of fire" .. lets be real here.

[Defekted]

Terrorism is the MEANS by which they fight, not the reason. You can't call terrorism "freedom fighting". They may be fighting for their "freedom" in their minds, but terror is just the TYPE of war they're using, their tool, and that's bullshit. I'm all for fighting for what you want for your country, but not by those means.

of course, no one condones it, but in the eyes of the Irish the IRA werent terrortists, in the eyes of the palestinians the hamas isnt terrorists, and in Lebanon hezbullah isnts terrorists..... thats how things are....

me, personally? i think they are all idiots.... targeting civilians in any way is disgusting....

but to give a blank check to Israel becuase they have a governement and country rather than a few hundred men.... is wrong to.... States can be terrorists to.... and what is going on in Lebanon right now is a form of terrorism.... displacing (making HOMELESS) A MILLION PEOPLE is terrorism....

[Micha]

of course, no one condones it, but in the eyes of the Irish the IRA werent terrortists, in the eyes of the palestinians the hamas isnt terrorists, and in Lebanon hezbullah isnts terrorists..... thats how things are....

me, personally? i think they are all idiots.... targeting civilians in any way is disgusting....

but to give a blank check to Israel becuase they have a governement and country rather than a few hundred men.... is wrong to.... States can be terrorists to.... and what is going on in Lebanon right now is a form of terrorism.... displacing (making HOMELESS) A MILLION PEOPLE is terrorism....

Thank you!! And that doesnt make you a Jew hater either cuz i can see where this could go..

[ShaE]

every conflict is different, and each needs to be talked about is a unique way...whats happening in Iraq right now is straight up civil war, Iraqi vs Iraqi (with our forces in the middle doing nothing productive - time to bounce) .... in Lebanon, Israel is fighting against Hezbullah, Hezbullah has killed more soldiers than civilians in this conflict (2:1), and in the past 6 years they have killed less Israeli civilians than the bombay bombing in india last week.... while Israel has killed tons of civilians in bombings of INFRASTRUCTURE (not reacting to a shot or missle) .... they are bombing fro Tripoli in the North to the nearest village on the border (like the Israeli general said, no where in Lebanon is safe).....not quite "in the line of fire" .. lets be real here.
Yes conflicts are unique, but one can make generalizations.
Regardless of whether it's civil conflict or foreign , I think everyone can agree that civilians are thrown into the muck of things far more than ever. The nature of the tactics used ENDANGER them more. Terror is used by too many now, and how do you cause terror? By threats..usually to the people. People are getting desperate, or they're the underdog, or for whatever reason they are using these tactics and that spells big trouble for people, not just military personnel. Some places don't even HAVE armies, no structure, no ANYTHING it's entirely rebel forces or terrorist groups..or militants. That's a big fucking problem- nobody's accountable.

[ShaE]

me, personally? i think they are all idiots.... targeting civilians in any way is disgusting....

but to give a blank check to Israel becuase they have a governement and country rather than a few hundred men.... is wrong to.... States can be terrorists to.... and what is going on in Lebanon right now is a form of terrorism.... displacing (making HOMELESS) A MILLION PEOPLE is terrorism....
I 100% agree, and never said anything was "ok" b/c it was Israel and formally organized military. Terrorism can be done by anyone, and has been done by US. There's no arguing about that.

Terrorism and intimidation are slightly different , but not entirely. I definitely agree that often times brute force has been used in order to INSTILL fear in whomever you're attacking, for political and strategic purposes. That is, yes, a form of terrorism. But that too has been going on since the dawn of time...one country flexing its muscles to send a message to another . I just don't agree w/ purposely targeting civilians to send this message. Do not confuse that though, with my saying I think higher civilian casualties GIVEN these situations are unavoidable. Like I told Micha, nobody's justifying, just observing and accepting the reality of what's different now.

[Defekted]

I 100% agree, and never said anything was "ok" b/c it was Israel and formally organized military. Terrorism can be done by anyone, and has been done by US. There's no arguing about that.

Terrorism and intimidation are slightly different , but not entirely. I definitely agree that often times brute force has been used in order to INSTILL fear in whomever you're attacking, for political and strategic purposes. That is, yes, a form of terrorism. But that too has been going on since the dawn of time...one country flexing its muscles to send a message to another . I just don't agree w/ purposely targeting civilians to send this message. Do not confuse that though, with my saying I think higher civilian casualties GIVEN these situations are unavoidable.

I think they are avoidable by not doing it in the first place ... and thats were the anti-war/pro-war dilemma starts.....

of course high civilian deaths are going to happen, i dont care how "smart" your bombs are... you throw two into a 10-story building and make it collapse, your gonna take out the block, even if the missle entered the bathroom window you wanted it to...... im not debating whether there is a better way to shoot that missle but rather that the entire war itself is bullshit and wont get Israel anywhere. or the states anywhere, and so forth.....

war against ideology has to be done within the local population, arabs have to rise up and change the bullshit way of thinking from the islamists, arabs have to rise up and take over in a democratic way the governments .... and none of this is helping that happen, the arab street is fuming right now, and begging for the death of Israel and America.....

[Micha]

So are other countries (france) but call me anti-american cuz i think like that right :rolleyes:

[ShaE]

I think they are avoidable by not doing it in the first place ... and thats were the anti-war/pro-war dilemma starts.....

So then how would you propose we fight insurgents in Iraq, or how would anybody fight any type of guerrilla war w/o endangering civilians? What do you do about suicide bombers in urban areas? You have no control over that when that's what you're fighting against. You suggest we let them run amok b/c if we "engage" them we're endangering people? Not clear on what you propose by " not doing it in the first place"

[ShaE]

So are other countries (france) but call me anti-american cuz i think like that right :rolleyes:
Why would someone call you anti american for that? :hmmm

[Defekted]

So then how would you propose we fight insurgents in Iraq, or how would anybody fight any type of guerrilla war w/o endangering civilians? What do you do about suicide bombers in urban areas? You have no control over that when that's what you're fighting against. You suggest we let them run amok b/c if we "engage" them we're endangering people? Not clear on what you propose by " not doing it in the first place"

I think you have to ask why this is happening in the first place. What are the ROOT reasons. Its like trying to chop weeds for everyday of every year for decades by snipping the top leaf.... its psychotic... and ineffective....

I wrote, last night, a very long post on what I think should be done by the U.S. and Israel in order to acheive peace in the middle east, and ISOLATE the extremists of Islam....

Any movement, i dont care whether it is Jihadism, Communism, Democracy, whatever.....CANNOT SURVIVE without the people behind it......

and I dont care what anyone says, every person wants to live life in peace with their family, grow old with thier wife, and see their children grow..... the slogans of the Islamists can only go so far if they stop looking legitimate, if there are no more Palestinian suffering to rage about, if there is no Lebanese children being burned by bombs, if there is no US troops on Iraqi soil (looking like imperialist occupiers) then you make them look like lunatics, and in time (not overnight) the arabs will stop joining their ranks.....

right now, do you know how many people are DYING to join hezbullah? this wasnt the case 2 weeks ago....its amazing what war can do.... its makes extremeists from moderates..... its not about letting them "run amok" its about killing it at the root....

[Studz]

I think you have to ask why this is happening in the first place. What are the ROOT reasons. Its like trying to chop weeds for everyday of every year for decades by snipping the top leaf.... its psychotic... and ineffective....

I wrote, last night, a very long post on what I think should be done by the U.S. and Israel in order to acheive peace in the middle east, and ISOLATE the extremists of Islam....

Any movement, i dont care whether it is Jihadism, Communism, Democracy, whatever.....CANNOT SURVIVE without the people behind it......

and I dont care what anyone says, every person wants to live life in peace with their family, grow old with thier wife, and see their children grow..... the slogans of the Islamists can only go so far if they stop looking legitimate, if there are no more Palestinian suffering to rage about, if there is no Lebanese children being burned by bombs, if there is no US troops on Iraqi soil (looking like imperialist occupiers) then you make them look like lunatics, and in time (not overnight) the arabs will stop joining their ranks.....

right now, do you know how many people are DYING to join hezbullah? this wasnt the case 2 weeks ago....its amazing what war can do.... its makes extremeists from moderates..... its not about letting them "run amok" its about killing it at the root....

agree 10000%. Last night i was watching a report about the 10 story building that was bombed in lebanon. And u see the anguish and pain of the people and it made all of them turn that pain in to anger and they all started chanted slogans that they will sacrifice themselves for nasrallah (leader of hizbollah).

You killed someons little brother, sister, mother, father and call it colateral damage there family members would do anything (even turn to terrorism) in order to exact revenge.

Just put yourself in there shoes. I know if anyone would do something to my family (like kill my parents), and no one is holding them responsible, i would do anything to take revenge on them.

[Micha]

agree 10000%. Last night i was watching a report about the 10 story building that was bombed in lebanon. And u see the anguish and pain of the people and it made all of them turn that pain in to anger and they all started chanted slogans that they will sacrifice themselves for nasrallah (leader of hizbollah).

You killed someons little brother, sister, mother, father and call it colateral damage there family members would do anything (even turn to terrorism) in order to exact revenge.

Just put yourself in there shoes. I know if anyone would do something to my family (like kill my parents), and no one is holding them responsible, i would do anything to take revenge on them.

So your asking for a little more understanding of the situation...

[Studz]

So your asking for a little more understanding of the situation...

Just making a point. That theres this anger bottles up and then people say oh they hate us cause we are americans and we wear short skirts and do whatever we want. That is utter BS. They dont care that ulive like that, but when u defend isreal after isreal bombed and killed ur family members. They will hate everything u stand for.

Case and Point. Just look to our own Beck, his friend was killed in sept 11 and he hates all arabs. if he wasnt a muslim, he would hate all muslims and arabs.

[Micha]

Just making a point. That theres this anger bottles up and then people say oh they hate us cause we are americans and we wear short skirts and do whatever we want. That is utter BS. They dont care that ulive like that, but when u defend isreal after isreal bombed and killed ur family members. They will hate everything u stand for.

Case and Point. Just look to our own Beck, his friend was killed in sept 11 and he hates all arabs. if he wasnt a muslim, he would hate all muslims and arabs.

Good point!

[ShaE]

I think you have to ask why this is happening in the first place. What are the ROOT reasons. Its like trying to chop weeds for everyday of every year for decades by snipping the top leaf.... its psychotic... and ineffective....

Sure you do, you should always examine the core issues/causes, but in the meantime it's still happening so what do you do? How do you "fight" terrorism or rebels in an urban guerrilla setting?




and I dont care what anyone says, every person wants to live life in peace with their family, grow old with thier wife, and see their children grow..... the slogans of the Islamists can only go so far if they stop looking legitimate, if there are no more Palestinian suffering to rage about, if there is no Lebanese children being burned by bombs, if there is no US troops on Iraqi soil (looking like imperialist occupiers) then you make them look like lunatics, and in time (not overnight) the arabs will stop joining their ranks.....

You're counting on an awful lot. Not every person wants that, some people are extremely fucked up, to put it bluntly, beyond repair. Some people would gladly kill their own families for a cause...send their wives off w/ bombs on them. It's happened, in MANY scenarios. There will ALWAYS be extremists and whackjobs , and there will always be SOMEONE willing to follow them. You can never appease everyone. You can make extremism less likely, less appealing, but you cannot eradicate it. Issues like religion and nationalism cause people to feel so passionately that they are by nature, driven to extremes. Unhappy people, angry people, etc- they will always exist. So how will you handle them and their tactics when they act out?


right now, do you know how many people are DYING to join hezbullah? this wasnt the case 2 weeks ago....its amazing what war can do.... its makes extremeists from moderates..... its not about letting them "run amok" its about killing it at the root....


I entirely agree.

[ShaE]

You killed someons little brother, sister, mother, father and call it colateral damage there family members would do anything (even turn to terrorism) in order to exact revenge.

and that's part of the problem. But instead of families taking revenge, we have NATIONS taking revenge, tit for tat...back and forth. If nobody stops it, it will continue. You just validated both sides. BOTH SIDES have legit greivances , atrocities done to them by the other...so according to you they're both right in seeking revenge. If they both continue, when does it end?

Revenge accomplishes nothing except furthering hatred and perpetuating the cycle.

[DINO nYc]

From one of the UN observers that died in the bombing.

E-Mail Casts Doubt on Claims of Israel Targeting U.N. Peacekeepers

UNITED NATIONS — An e-mail sent by a Canadian U.N. observer and obtained by FOX News casts doubt on claims by U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan that the Israeli attack on a U.N. peacekeeper observation post along the Lebanese border was intentional.

The email from Major Paeta Hess-von Kruedener warned that the post had come under "unintentional" artillery fire and aerial bombing several times in the previous weeks, and that several Hezbollah positions were in the area of the patrol base.

"It is not safe or prudent for us to conduct normal patrol activities," wrote Kruedener in the July 18th e-mail. "(The artillery and aerial bombing) has not been deliberate targeting, but has rather been due to tactical necessity."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,205978,00.html

Now STFU.

[DINO nYc]

I love how CNN has yet to even mention this... the US Media is so divided. Special interests rule over factual information - it's such a fucking joke.

[ShaE]

Special interests rule over factual information - it's such a fucking joke.
Special interests rule over EVERYTHING here at the moment, even national security.:disappoin

[woo]

this war is so fucking sloppy.

we are dealing with underground intelligence ... hello?

[ShaE]

this war is so fucking sloppy.

we are dealing with underground intelligence ... hello?
Sloppy is a fkin understatement. The world's only superpower decided to engage in a war w/ no post war plan, no exit strategy, unprepared, and under false pretenses. I don't see that going well.


I believe it was that underground intel that allowed the special forces to get al-Zarqawi, or at least that's what they're saying. One fkin thing they've done right.

[woo]

hey at least the US has taken down some terrorist leaders... and can prove it.

[ShaE]

hey at least the US has taken down some terrorist leaders... and can prove it.
credit where it's due:agree

[woo]

credit where it's due:agree
that's the basis behind my stand with these bombings.

terrorists changed the rules here. they don't have political borders. so if you are attacking political borders- ur not attacking them.

but they know ur trying to...

[Bekim...]

that's the basis behind my stand with these bombings.

terrorists changed the rules here. they don't have political borders. so if you are attacking political borders- ur not attacking them.

but they know ur trying to...
they killed A LOT of hezbollah believe me. Makes the world a better place for all of us.

[woo]

ok i believe you. but ur prejudice against me so stop replying to me.

[Bekim...]

ok i believe you. but ur prejudice against me so stop replying to me.

I'm n0t predjudice against you st0p being a baby w00:disgusted

[woo]

ur being the baby. im the adult who is refraining themsevles.

so try and do the same.

[Bekim...]

ur being the baby. im the adult who is refraining themsevles.

so try and do the same.

YOU'RE THE BABY!

[woo]

ur the asshole

[Bekim...]

ur the asshole
:disgusted

[Micha]

they killed A LOT of hezbollah believe me. Makes the world a better place for all of us.

NO BECK ITS NOT MAKING THE WORLD A BETTER PLACE. FRANCE HATES US. AND NOW LEBANON HATES US. WE ARE MAKING MORE AND MORE ENEMIES AND THAT IS PUTTING THE WORLD IN A WORSE PLACE!!!!

[woo]

:disgusted
"i signed missile when they were being launched to serbia"

like.. get a life... and get a strong argument. u don't know how to debate.

[woo]

NO BECK ITS NOT MAKING THE WORLD A BETTER PLACE. FRANCE HATES US. AND NOW LEBANON HATES US. WE ARE MAKING MORE AND MORE ENEMIES AND THAT IS PUTTING THE WORLD IN A WORSE PLACE!!!!
all the jews are on our side... i dunno about that.

and israel will get all lthe funding theyir hearts desire for this campaign so this is as close to WWIII as it have even been.

and to be honest... if the US gets into it they better nuke half of africa and the middle east if they want to get something done

otherwise.. this scab scratching... is gunna make me move to south america. great biochem research going on there.

[Bekim...]

"i signed missile when they were being launched to serbia"

like.. get a life... and get a strong argument. u don't know how to debate.

I have a life no 1 and so what if I said that? to me they are animals that raped and killed women and children just like the nazis... did the stink of the mass graves bother your family as much as my stupid comment? don't act as if I didnt have a right to say that. nothing against you, everything against your people.

[woo]

I have a life no 1 and so what if I said that? to me they are animals that raped and killed women and children just like the nazis... did the stink of the mass graves bother your family as much as my stupid comment? don't act as if I didnt have a right to say that. nothing against you, everything against your people.
it's a diff discussion.

yo i had family in bosnia and croatia who were tortured and killed. everyone was getting raped and massacred u moron.

over 100k serbs were killed so stop being a fucking hypocrite

[Bekim...]

it's a diff discussion.

yo i had family in bosnia and croatia who were tortured and killed. everyone was getting raped and massacred u moron.

over 100k serbs were killed so stop being a fucking hypocrite

no no no... serbs were fucking going around RAPING and killing muslims like animals.. dont say they were not

[woo]

yes they were. just bc CNN wasn't on our side doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[Bekim...]

yes they were. just bc CNN wasn't on our side doesn't mean it didn't happen.

sure it did but the serbs were the ones acting like nazis killing MASS amounts of muslims... not only that but I saw a documentry and the serbian soldiers were drunk and cruel, raping and shooting little kids:disgusted that malosivic cocksucker and his fucking son

[woo]

anyways beck ur out of ur fucking mind. that KLA were guerilla animals.

kosovo was once yugoslavian with an infrastructure. internal borderwise, its in serbia. albanians migrated in there popped out an average of 8 kids (very close to that) in a few generations believe it the were killing(those who refused/ kicking serbs out from the albo border inward for decades at the KLA (kosovo liberation army) slowly brewing.

then they wanted to take over kosovo and killed and kicked out the 5% serbs left and now they want the land.
what a matter? can't build your own infrastructure? :booted

don't fucking tell me that no1 was raping murdering looting and destroying the serbs. if bosnia was 70% serbian b4 the civil war erupt? wtf happene dto them if HALF can't be accounted for? they dug holes and are living in there now?

no their bodies are turned to dust there and those who escaped (one of my uncles was lucky to miss the grenade thrown @ his livestock)
CNN didn't go following them where they sought refuge.
doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[woo]

sure it did but the serbs were the ones acting like nazis killing MASS amounts of muslims... not only that but I saw a documentry and the serbian soldiers were drunk and cruel, raping and shooting little kids:disgusted that malosivic cocksucker and his fucking son
let me tell you something about nazi's since ur in the dark.

Ustashi was the croatian political party. even their country's flag had the checkerboard symbol which became banned @ the post WWII tribunals.
why? bc they were a part of he NAZI party.
they were exterminating serbs with the jews bc we aren't catholic- we are christian orthodox. we aren't muslim either so trust me we have been subjected to terrorist strikes by fundamental muslims bc they are EVERYWHERE.

so no we aren't nazi's u dont even know what nazi really is.
nazi's killed us. my shrink is a jew and even he knows that.

[woo]

albanians now run the drug cartel in queens.

what good pple... poor little refugees :booted

[woo]

israelis are killing UN workers.

wonderful.

nice strategic military strike.

[Studz]

sure it did but the serbs were the ones acting like nazis killing MASS amounts of muslims... not only that but I saw a documentry and the serbian soldiers were drunk and cruel, raping and shooting little kids:disgusted that malosivic cocksucker and his fucking son


So cause its against ur people its okay but if its arabs its all good.

The albanians according to pre malsavic listed the KLA as a terrorist organization, But because they helped free there people all of the sudden they are removed from that list ? now wahts the diffrent between hizbollah and the KLA :hmmm

and they did use suicide bombings as well. Just for ur info.

[woo]

So cause its against ur people its okay but if its arabs its all good.

The albanians according to pre malsavic listed the KLA as a terrorist organization, But because they helped free there people all of the sudden they are removed from that list ? now wahts the diffrent between hizbollah and the KLA :hmmm

and they did use suicide bombings as well. Just for ur info.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/guerilla

guer·ril·la or gue·ril·la P Pronunciation Key (g-rl)
n.
A member of an irregular, usually indigenous military or paramilitary unit operating in small bands in occupied territory to harass and undermine the enemy, as by surprise raids.

[Spanish, raiding party, guerrilla force, diminutive of guerra, war, of Germanic origin. See wers- in Indo-European Roots.]

[Download Now or Buy the Book]
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

guerilla

adj : used of independent armed resistance forces; "guerrilla warfare"; "partisan forces" [syn: guerrilla(a), guerilla(a), underground, irregular] n : a member of an irregular armed force that fights a stronger force by sabotage and harassment [syn: guerrilla, irregular, insurgent]




JUST TO PUT IT LIGHTLY