War is NOT the answer!!!

[Micha]

This is an article I found that pretty much sums up everything. This article addresses Iraq specifically, but it may as well be speaking about Lebanon today.

War Is Not the Answer

For the past few months, the prospect of war has been looming closer. Bush and his administrators continue to list reasons why military action is necessary. Despite Bush's justifications, millions of dissenters have turned out for peace demonstrations around the world. Before making the final move towards war, the Bush administration must listen to these voices. In the current situation, war will only create problems bigger than those it may solve. Not only does the United States have an obligation not to start a war without the support of the United Nations, but also, continuing diplomacy is in the best interests of America.

Many of the arguments supporting the war against Iraq are faulty. Saddam Hussein is evil and the Iraqi people suffer under his rule. However, a war on Iraq is not the noble cause Bush claims, for several reasons. First, the connections between Iraq and Al-Qeada are very few. Many other countries have done much more to aid terrorists. If we are fighting the war on terrorism, Iraq would be pretty far down the list of countries to combat. Second, a regime change does not mean that Iraq's problems would be fixed. Much of the poverty and devastation there is a result of war. By fighting another war against Iraq, America will only multiply this devastation. Third, a huge percentage of Iraq's population is children. In a full-fledged war, it is impossible to avoid civilian casualties. In Iraq, many of those would be children.

So why would America fight a war in Iraq? The Bush administration claims to have evidence that Iraq has not disarmed according to treaties and may be holding dangerous weapons. Since no proof has been announced, it is hard to know how significant the evidence may be. However, many point to other reasons the United States may want to fight a war against Iraq. Iraq controls huge oil reserves. With oil prices rising, the long-term economic benefits of controlling those reserves could help the economy. There are many other such ways a war with Iraq could be to the United States' economic and politic gain. But it is worth the lives of children?

The United States has an obligation not to fight a war without the backing of the United Nations. Just as the treaties Iraq may be violating are necessary to international peace, so are the other agreements and rules of the United Nations. The U.N. was created after World War II to prevent another such catastrophe from ever occurring. It was invented to ensure that each nation had a voice in the international community, and that a certain balance of power would prevent any one country from tyrannizing the world. The United States has an obligation to respect and uphold these values for the sake of world peace. The treaty Iraq may be violating affects the entire world, not just America, and the entire world should have a say in how to respond.

Also, listening to the U.N. is in the best interests of the United States. Especially since Americans are facing new terrorist threats from around the world, the United States needs the support of its allies. By refusing to listen to countries like France, Russia and Germany, the Bush administration is alienating many powerful friends and creating a growing ill-will towards the United Nations. By going to war, America risks loosing many valuable friends and making many dangerous enemies.

Lastly, a war with Iraq will increase the threat of terrorism against the United States. Not long ago, American troops stormed Afghanistan, ousting the regime that supported Al-Qaeda. By starting another war in the Middle East, America risks appearing to other countries as an enemy of Islam and the Arab world. Though this may not be the case, such an appearance would be enough to stir up more hatred and deepen the schism between the Islamic world and the United States. The survivors of the potential war, as well as the survivors of the U.S.-backed sanctions, will have watched their families, friends, and neighbors die at the hands of America. Even if the United States killed every known terrorist in the world, if innocent people suffer in the process the U.S. would only sow more seeds of hatred. From hatred and desperation springs the kind of violent energy behind terrorism. In essence, a war will only create more terrorists and fuel the existing anti-American sentiments if America is not extremely careful in its actions. A war, quite possibly for our own economic gain, without widespread international support, would hardly qualify as a careful or strategic move on the part of the United States.

The United States must not proceed with the war against Iraq (OR LEBANON). For the sake of the world and for the American people, the U.S. must act through the United Nations, with care, thought, and respect for the other nations of the world. America must not create new enemies nor stir up more hatred against its people. Instead, the United States must lead the world in diplomacy and peaceful resolution. It must lead by example, showing ultimate respect for international agreements. War is not the answer.

[Micha]

And I would also like to add that I am not making anyone agree with me. At the very least listen to and weigh all sides of the story carefully and then try to find the truth in the middle. Dont listen to everything your politician, parents, Bill Oreilly, friends, etc say. Being a good citizen isnt about backing and trusting America 100%, its about questioning and doing the right thing.

[Bekim...]

true but again when people are blowing up buses, cafe's and hijacking planes sometimes there is no other answer

[Defekted]

Awesome Micha

[TrippinFace101]

Where u get this info from Greenpeace

[ShaE]

I think all that Iraq info is yesterday's news...it's what everyone w/ a brain thought 3 years ago....:yourcrazy

I agree completely about the importance of allies and the UN, but I don't necessarily agree that we should never act w/o their complete support. I don't presume to know what may/may not happen down the road and remember, the UN is only made up of nations, they have interests also. There may come a time where we need to deviate from that.

In this case, I don't think joining any war is the answer, but I don't think that's always true. Some wars are necessary.

[ShaE]

Where u get this info from Greenpeace
That'd probably be more reliable than the bullshit intel our cia gathered pre- war.

[Micha]

Awesome Micha

:kiss

[Micha]

.

In this case, I don't think joining any war is the answer, but I don't think that's always true. Some wars are necessary.


I dunno i still dont think war is neccessary. But once again, here is where i am torn....

Is it TOO LATE for any of the suggestions that have been thrown around on here?? That is really the question. (And I dont know the answer) :shuffle

[Bandit]

Micha ....чтоб у тебя на лбу ХУЙ вырос ......

[ShaE]

I dunno i still dont think war is neccessary.


Necessary for what? Are you trying to say you don't think war is JUSTIFIED , EVER? Or are you saying you don't think war is necessary in this case to settle these issues?

Whether something is "necessary" or not is entirely dependent on WHAT you're trying to accomplish in the first place.

[Leon]

Necessary for what? Are you trying to say you don't think war is JUSTIFIED , EVER? Or are you saying you don't think war is necessary in this case to settle these issues?

That's what I would like to know, since I believe that peaceniks like Mishinka, during a need for war and defense, do more harm than good--especially to themselves.

If not for war, Mishinka would be speaking German and heiling Hitler or the "Rising Sun".

[Micha]

If not for war, Mishinka would be speaking German and heiling Hitler or the "Rising Sun".

:disappoin

[Penelicious]

Unfortunately, there have been, are and will always be WARS.

It's easy to chant at a peace rally or spew your peaceful rants over a message board but life cannot be rosey all of the time, especially in a world full of different people, languages, cultures and RELIGION.

[Micha]

Necessary for what? Are you trying to say you don't think war is JUSTIFIED , EVER? Or are you saying you don't think war is necessary in this case to settle these issues?

Whether something is "necessary" or not is entirely dependent on WHAT you're trying to accomplish in the first place.

Ok so what are we trying to accomplish? If its to wipe out terrorists than hell yeah i dont think this was is necessary. Why? Because all this fighting and bombing is NOT going to wipe the terrorists off the map. The only thing i see happening is the build up of more and more hate (on both sides), the loss of innocent life (on both sides), the loss of beautiful land (on both sides), the loss of wild life (on both sides), the loss of beaches (on both sides), and there is so much more being lost.

When is enough enough?

Maybe my views are radical because I honestly can look beyond all this and still see a chance for peace to happen. Maybe you laugh at my views. But I can assure you this..... these same terrorists (the ones who everyone can agree are the ones to hate) are laughing in everyone's faces right now! How come I can see this so clearly, but no one else can? WAR IS NOT THE ANSWER!!!!!!!!!

And Leon, I dont know who Mashika is, but if you were referring to me, please do not ever compare me to Hitler. Do you honestly think Hitler would be arguing for peace in the current situation? :rolleyes:

[Micha]

Unfortunately, there have been, are and will always be WARS.

It's easy to chant at a peace rally or spew your peaceful rants over a message board but life cannot be rosey all of the time, especially in a world full of different people, languages, cultures and RELIGION.

I agree that there always have been wars. I also somewhat agree that there always will be wars. But Penny, it DOESN'T have to be that way.

And trust me, it isnt easy to "spew peaceful rants over a message board." But it makes me feel a hell of a lot better that I choose peace over war anyday.

[Leon]

And trust me, it isnt easy to "spew peaceful rants over a message board." But it makes me feel a hell of a lot better that I choose peace over war anyday.

There you have it, the crux of the motivation for your stance. It's not hat it makes logical sense, it just "makes you feel better".

Your feel good notion has no practical application. I have yet to see an alternative means of defense for Israel. I'd love to hear it though.

And Penny, you still look gorgeous even if it's just on the forum. :)

[darius]

Unfortunately, there have been, are and will always be WARS.

It's easy to chant at a peace rally or spew your peaceful rants over a message board but life cannot be rosey all of the time, especially in a world full of different people, languages, cultures and RELIGION.

its also dangerously easy (and foolish) to be accepting of war when its not being fought on your home turf.

[Penelicious]

There you have it, the crux of the motivation for your stance. It's not hat it makes logical sense, it just "makes you feel better".

Your feel good notion has no practical application. I have yet to see an alternative means of defense for Israel. I'd love to hear it though.

And Penny, you still look gorgeous even if it's just on the forum. :)


Thanks Leon!!!!! So nice to see you around these parts again!!

[Penelicious]

its also dangerously easy (and foolish) to be accepting of war when its not being fought on your home turf.


Actually, I saw the acts of 9/11 as acts of war..and I was there to witness the entire thing.....and I still stand behind what I say.

Is war wrong? Scary? unfair? ABSOLUTELY..but such is life, is it not? I DO NOT support all acts of war nor do I think it is an answer for everything..but unfortunately, there are certain things that are out of my control.

And p.s.--it is also JUST as easy to be against all acts of war and to be a peace pusher when war is also not fought on your home turf--chew on that.

[Micha]

There you have it, the crux of the motivation for your stance. It's not hat it makes logical sense, it just "makes you feel better".

Your feel good notion has no practical application. I have yet to see an alternative means of defense for Israel. I'd love to hear it though.

And Penny, you still look gorgeous even if it's just on the forum. :)

PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you think being angry about 9/11 and supporting a war makes anymore logical sense? Because really it doesnt!!!

And I am already two steps ahead of you for i have already asked what other alternatives there are besides war!

Do a search of this forum alone. I'm sure you will find the alternatives that a number of people took the time to post.

[Penelicious]

Micha...although I respect and admire your conviction, unfortunately your cries will only fall on deaf ears.

The super powers of the world have always resorted to war.....and will always do so. Are there alternatives? ABSOLUTELY....but not everyone can be pacified with a handshake and a smile.

[Leon]

PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you think being angry about 9/11 and supporting a war makes anymore logical sense? Because really it doesnt!!!

I have no idea what you mean above.


And I am already two steps ahead of you for i have already asked what other alternatives there are besides war!


Two steps! Not just one but two! Wow, you must have one athletic mind. Very impressed. Your suggestion is still vapor here, your "do a search and look what others posted" is a cop out. You are arguing against war in Lebanon, no? Afghanistan?

Let's hear your alternatives.

[darius]

Actually, I saw the acts of 9/11 as acts of war..and I was there to witness the entire thing.....and I still stand behind what I say.

Is war wrong? Scary? unfair? ABSOLUTELY..but such is life, is it not? I DO NOT support all acts of war nor do I think it is an answer for everything..but unfortunately, there are certain things that are out of my control.

And p.s.--it is also JUST as easy to be against all acts of war and to be a peace pusher when war is also not fought on your home turf--chew on that.


i'm sorry that i don't support killing innocent people to support the material agenda of a few greedy people. i would rather have my own life taken from me knowing that i didn't succomb to the notion of being happy or content or even just a little ok with killing innocent people. i'd like to think that God did not intend for us to carry on like this. i kinda almost feel like God has pushed His plan in such a way that today's conflicts will be IMPOSSIBLE to be solved by war, pushing humanity towards a different solution. the sad thing is that so many of us are too hard-headed or misguided to realize. all these current conflicts are part of a violent vortex that we've become sucked into. i think America has the key to be able to pull us all out of it, but that key has been buried underneath a bunch of crap. being the greatest nation is the world means being able to accomplish the most daunting and challenging of tasks in the world. surely our collective mesh of cultures working together to make this country great over time is a testament to this potency.

How is it possible for men to fight from morning until evening, killing each other, shedding the blood of their fellow-men: And for what object? To gain possession of a part of the earth! Even the animals, when they fight, have an immediate and more reasonable cause for their attacks! How terrible it is that men, who are of the higher kingdom, can descend to slaying and bringing misery to their fellow-beings, for the possession of a tract of land!

The highest of created beings fighting to obtain the lowest form of matter, earth! Land belongs not to one people, but to all people. This earth is not man's home, but his tomb. It is for their tombs these men are fighting. There is nothing so horrible in this world as the tomb, the abode of the decaying bodies of men.

However great the conqueror, however many countries he may reduce to slavery, he is unable to retain any part of these devastated lands but one tiny portion -- his tomb! If more land is required for the improvement of the condition of the people, for the spread of civilization (for the substitution of just laws for brutal customs) -- surely it would be possible to acquire peaceably the necessary extension of territory.

But war is made for the satisfaction of men's ambition; for the sake of worldly gain to the few, terrible misery is brought to numberless homes, breaking the hearts of hundreds of men and women!

How many widows mourn their husbands, how many stories of savage cruelty do we hear! How many little orphaned children are crying for their dead fathers, how many women are weeping for their slain sons!

There is nothing so heart-breaking and terrible as an outburst of human savagery!

I charge you all that each one of you concentrate all the thoughts of your heart on love and unity. When a thought of war comes, oppose it by a stronger thought of peace. A thought of hatred must be destroyed by a more powerful thought of love. Thoughts of war bring destruction to all harmony, well-being, restfulness and content.

Thoughts of love are constructive of brotherhood, peace, friendship, and happiness.

When soldiers of the world draw their swords to kill, soldiers of God clasp each other's hands! So may all the savagery of man disappear by the Mercy of God, working through the pure in heart and the sincere of soul. Do not think the peace of the world an ideal impossible to attain!

Nothing is impossible to the Divine Benevolence of God.

If you desire with all your heart, friendship with every race on earth, your thought, spiritual and positive, will spread; it will become the desire of others, growing stronger and stronger, until it reaches the minds of all men.

Do not despair! Work steadily. Sincerity and love will conquer hate. How many seemingly impossible events are coming to pass in these days! Set your faces steadily towards the Light of the World. Show love to all; 'Love is the breath of the Holy Spirit in the heart of Man'. Take courage! God never forsakes His children who strive and work and pray! Let your hearts be filled with the strenuous desire that tranquillity and harmony may encircle all this warring world. So will success crown your efforts, and with the universal brotherhood will come the Kingdom of God in peace and goodwill.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 28)

[Micha]

Micha...although I respect and admire your conviction, unfortunately your cries will only fall on deaf ears.

The super powers of the world have always resorted to war.....and will always do so. Are there alternatives? ABSOLUTELY....but not everyone can be pacified with a handshake and a smile.


This is unfortunately very true Penny.

And we are the superpower of the world. Which can be a good thing. But it can also be a bad thing.

Maybe peace isn't possible. Maybe it is. But suggesting peace in such a time of destruction doesnt make me (or anyone else)b anti-American. It doesnt make me (or anyone else) some sort of Hitler. Call me a dreamer. Fine. But please dont think for one second that I am any of those hateful names.

[Leon]

Nice poetry, Darius, but again missing practical meaning and any logical sense especially for today's world.

Here's one distinction you are not making when you state:


'm sorry that i don't support killing innocent people to support the material agenda of a few greedy people. i would rather have my own life taken from me knowing that i didn't succomb to the notion of being happy or content or even just a little ok with killing innocent people. i'd like to think that God did not intend for us to carry on like this.

Are we targeting innocent people? Is Israel? I really doubt it. Were AQ targeting Civilians? Are Hizbollah? The answer is a resounding yes.

Did you, perhaps, suggest that Israelis should stage a sit in by the borders while Katyusha rockets are flying over the border?

[Micha]

I have no idea what you mean above.



Two steps! Not just one but two! Wow, you must have one athletic mind. Very impressed. Your suggestion is still vapor here, your "do a search and look what others posted" is a cop out. You are arguing against war in Lebanon, no? Afghanistan?

Let's hear your alternatives.


WAR IN GENERAL!!! Just because you only see black and white doesnt mean I do.

[Penelicious]

And Darius stop putting words into my mouth. I didn't say I am PRO all wars.....and I do agree that most wars have to do with greed and power and above all MONEY.

If worldwide peace was something that was possible, I would be ALL for it, but unfortunately we can sometimes hardly maintain the peace within our own homes--how can we expect it to exist among BILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF PEOPLE??????

[Micha]

i'm sorry that i don't support killing innocent people to support the material agenda of a few greedy people. i would rather have my own life taken from me knowing that i didn't succomb to the notion of being happy or content or even just a little ok with killing innocent people. i'd like to think that God did not intend for us to carry on like this. i kinda almost feel like God has pushed His plan in such a way that today's conflicts will be IMPOSSIBLE to be solved by war, pushing humanity towards a different solution. the sad thing is that so many of us are too hard-headed or misguided to realize. all these current conflicts are part of a violent vortex that we've become sucked into. i think America has the key to be able to pull us all out of it, but that key has been buried underneath a bunch of crap. being the greatest nation is the world means being able to accomplish the most daunting and challenging of tasks in the world. surely our collective mesh of cultures working together to make this country great over time is a testament to this potency.

:heart radical thinkers.

[Leon]

WAR IN GENERAL!!! Just because you only see black and white doesnt mean I do.

That's erudite. I thought you were two steps ahead of me as far as knowing an alternative to war? Is that the best you can offer for me? Assumption of what I see?

[Penelicious]

Here in this very post is a GREAT example of how human beings do not always agree on something.

The debate at hand, although a very important topic, is somewhat superficial considering it involves 4 people who are talking from the safety of their homes and/or offices.

But take people who don't agree on something as important as land, religion, money, power and then tell me how it's possible to keep it from escalating into something more serious..even possibly WAR?

[Micha]

That's erudite. I thought you were two steps ahead of me as far as knowing an alternative to war? Is that the best you can offer for me? Assumption of what I see?

Silly silly Leon. I am not two steps ahead of you as far as knowing an alternative to war. I am two steps ahead of you in already asking the same question. You asked what the alternative to war was and I responded that I already asked that question. Heres another FYI, I also asked if it were too late for the alternatives that were suggested on here. And yes, therefore, I am TWO steps ahead of you. I dont walk backwards. And finding the answers for you that were already said on here in response to a question that I ALREADY asked in my eyes is walking backwards. Catch up Leon!

And here is the bottom line: MICHA DOES NOT KNOW ALL THE ANSWERS! NEITHER DO YOU! NEITHER DOES ANYBODY! How can you support a war if you dont have all the answers? :hmmm

[darius]

Nice poetry, Darius, but again missing practical meaning and any logical sense especially for today's world.

Here's one distinction you are not making when you state:



Are we targeting innocent people? Is Israel? I really doubt it. Were AQ targeting Civilians? Are Hizbollah? The answer is a resounding yes.

Did you, perhaps, suggest that Israelis should stage a sit in by the borders while Katyusha rockets are flying over the border?


not poetry . . . actually excerpts from series of talks given by Abdu-l'Baha, son and successor to Baha'u'llah - prophet-founder of the Baha'i Faith.

i think you are getting a little too specific with what i'm saying -- i'm intensionally not making the distinction you pointed out. i'm not quite sure of i can word it as well as i'd like to convey it. for me, based on the beliefs that make me who i am, i do not think its right for innocent people to die for the purposes of material ambition -- whether that be in the form of exercising power, greed, whatever. now i am completely aware of who is targetting who and for what, but at the core of it all exists a problem that does not get summed up in the capture of 2 israeli soldiers. conventional fighting as we see here does nothing to address that core problem. if anything, it helps it to grow. it feeds it, makes it more robust.

Leon, my good man, was there really a need to undermine my intellect by suggesting that i think israel should stage a sit in by the border? c'mon man, u know i'm in tune with what's going on as good as the next guy. what i'm striving to get it is that while you and i have absolutely no control over what's going over there, we do have control over how we choose to view the world and how we choose to view humanity. i accept that there are savage beasts in the jungle, but i don't feel its right to destroy every beast because a few live amongst them.

[darius]

And Darius stop putting words into my mouth. I didn't say I am PRO all wars.....and I do agree that most wars have to do with greed and power and above all MONEY.

If worldwide peace was something that was possible, I would be ALL for it, but unfortunately we can sometimes hardly maintain the peace within our own homes--how can we expect it to exist among BILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF PEOPLE??????

i apologize if what i said appeared to be putting words in your mouth. do forgive.

you actually nailed it on the head -- it all begins at the grassroots. it starts from within the individual and can spread through any all you come in contact with, if you truly want it to.

The betterment of the world can be accomplished through pure and goodly deeds, through commendable and seemly conduct.

[Micha]

Here in this very post is a GREAT example of how human beings do not always agree on something.

The debate at hand, although a very important topic, is somewhat superficial considering it involves 4 people who are talking from the safety of their homes and/or offices.

But take people who don't agree on something as important as land, religion, money, power and then tell me how it's possible to keep it from escalating into something more serious..even possibly WAR?

Penny you are absolutely right. But that is why I suggested peace not war. If everyone were like you and I and could analyze the situation in its entirety there would be no need for war to resolve problems. If everyone realized that its almost impossible for everyone to agree on something, than maybe the next time there was a disagreement counties or people would think twice before getting involved in a war. Do you see where I am going with this?

[Leon]

Silly silly Leon.

Reverting to calling names is a first and evident sign that you are losing the debate.


I am not two steps ahead of you as far as knowing an alternative to war. I am two steps ahead of you in already asking the same question. You asked what the alternative to war was and I responded that I already asked that question. Heres another FYI, I also asked if it were too late for the alternatives that were suggested on here. And yes, therefore, I am TWO steps ahead of you. I dont walk backwards. And finding the answers for you that were already said on here in response to a question that I ALREADY asked in my eyes is walking backwards. Catch up Leon!


The title of this thread is that War is NOT the answer. My question to you, what is the answer. Thus far, I have yet to see your thoughts on this. You are, quite adapt, however, at quoting other people.

[Micha]

Leon, my good man, was there really a need to undermine my intellect by suggesting that i think israel should stage a sit in by the border? c'mon man, u know i'm in tune with what's going on as good as the next guy. what i'm striving to get it is that while you and i have absolutely no control over what's going over there, we do have control over how we choose to view the world and how we choose to view humanity. i accept that there are savage beasts in the jungle, but i don't feel its right to destroy every beast because a few live amongst them.

:applaud

[Penelicious]

i apologize if what i said appeared to be putting words in your mouth. do forgive.

you actually nailed it on the head -- it all begins at the grassroots. it starts from within the individual and can spread through any all you come in contact with, if you truly want it to.

The betterment of the world can be accomplished through pure and goodly deeds, through commendable and seemly conduct.


I agree with you 100% but unfortunately, I don't believe this is always a very realistic belief..at least not in this point and time.

It will take SO MUCH work and SO MUCH effort in order to come to a peaceful resolution with one another....and unfortunately, not everyone thinks that way.

VERY sad.

[Leon]

not poetry . . . actually excerpts from series of talks given by Abdu-l'Baha, son and successor to Baha'u'llah - prophet-founder of the Baha'i Faith.

Poetry in a sense that it sounds nice but that's all it does. I can quote the Bible, the Torah, and the Koran with pretty words, Darius, I doubt I will get far as far as practical application for the matter at hand.


i do not think its right for innocent people to die for the purposes of material ambition -- whether that be in the form of exercising power, greed, whatever.

I doubt anyone would disagree with this.


Leon, my good man, was there really a need to undermine my intellect by suggesting that i think israel should stage a sit in by the border? c'mon man, u know i'm in tune with what's going on as good as the next guy.
Which is why your stance to me was a bit perplexing.


what i'm striving to get it is that while you and i have absolutely no control over what's going over there, we do have control over how we choose to view the world and how we choose to view humanity. i accept that there are savage beasts in the jungle, but i don't feel its right to destroy every beast because a few live amongst them.


That right there tells me that you are seeing the Israelis as targeting "every beast". As a matter of fact, people are asking why Israelis and US are not ruthless enough. (http://tinyurl.com/h6h5w)

It's obvious Misha doesn't have any alternatives, but if you do, I would seriously love to hear them.

[Penelicious]

Penny you are absolutely right. But that is why I suggested peace not war. If everyone were like you and I and could analyze the situation in its entirety there would be no need for war to resolve problems. If everyone realized that its almost impossible for everyone to agree on something, than maybe the next time there was a disagreement counties or people would think twice before getting involved in a war. Do you see where I am going with this?


Absolutely I see where you are going with this....but like I've tried to say, I just don't think it's possible.

Pride, resentment, years of harboring anger...and EGO all get in the way of people trying to work out their problems.

[Micha]

Reverting to calling names is a first and evident sign that you are losing the debate.



The title of this thread is that War is NOT the answer. My question to you, what is the answer. Thus far, I have yet to see your thoughts on this. You are, quite adapt, however, at quoting other people.

Bear with me because I dont know how to do that double quote thing

But in response to your first comment, I didnt realize this was a debate, but if reverting to name calling is a first and evident sign that you are losing a debate than I guess that you lost this debate a while ago when you came on here and called me a peacenick Hitler (or something like that). :rolleyes:

In response to your second comment. Yes, the title of the thread is that war is not the answer. Just because, as a couple of you (Penny, etc) have mentioned, it may be the only thing that can be done at this point...IT IS STILL NOT THE ANSWER!!!!!!!! Think outside of the box and I am sure that you can figure out on your own what I mean by that.

[Micha]

Absolutely I see where you are going with this....but like I've tried to say, I just don't think it's possible.

Pride, resentment, years of harboring anger...and EGO all get in the way of people trying to work out their problems.

Correct! But all this pride, ego, resendment, anger WILL NOT BE RESOLVED BY WAR. It will only be intensified. War may be the last resort, but its definitely not the answer.

[Leon]

But in response to your first comment, I didnt realize this was a debate, but if reverting to name calling is a first and evident sign that you are losing a debate than I guess that you lost this debate a while ago when you came on here and called me a peacenick Hitler (or something like that). :rolleyes:

LOL! You saw peacenik and Hitler in one post and you put the two together, not me. Your stance is of a pacifist, peacenik. If you think that's an insult then so be it. Kinda ironic you would find that as an insult though.


In response to your second comment. Yes, the title of the thread is that war is not the answer. Just because, as a couple of you (Penny, etc) have mentioned, it may be the only thing that can be done at this point...IT IS STILL NOT THE ANSWER!!!!!!!!

Now I am totally confused. IS it an answer or isn't it? Can you elaborate?

[Defekted]

That right there tells me that you are seeing the Israelis as targeting "every beast". As a matter of fact, people are asking why Israelis and US are not ruthless enough. (http://tinyurl.com/h6h5w)



First and foremost, you provide a link to the NYPOST.... please try to refrain providing links to Rupert Murdock's publications if you want to maintain an objective debate....that is far from a world consesus of people asking why they havent hit israel hard enough...... thats number one...

number two, we can debate ideology back and forth all day, regarding who provoked what, and how to respond, and each is entitled to his or her opinion, however facts on the ground cannot be disputed, and they are:

Lebanese death toll: approaching 1,000 (with 90% being civilian) and almost 3,500 injured......

Israeli death toll: 94 Israelis killed (over half are IDF soldiers)

Lebanese displacement: approaching 1 Million displaced (homeless Lebanese out of a population of 3.8 million)

Northern Israeli displacement: Not sure of the number (looking for it now) but I know there is a substantial amount of Israelis who moved south when this crisis began....

Lebanese Civilian Infrasturcture: completely destroyed (every main highway and road has been bombed, Beirut has been effectively cut off from the rest of the country, no economic movement, no work force, humanitarian CRISIS in the south, electricity for a few hours a day if that, etc etc)

Israeli Infrastructure: untouched.

having said that Leon, please enlighten me on how you can justify this use of force? You can give me the usual IDF spokesman line "Hezbollah fires its rockets in civilian areas and so we regret the loss of lebanese civilian life but we have to respond"

the only thing with that is Israel has bombed and killed civilian targets well outside the 12 miles katusha range. They have bombed everying in the country up to the northern most border....... you see, this talk about "not intending" to kill civilians can fly if we are talking about one, two, eight, twelve cases.... but when it is the result every day in this war, when it is the result everday in the palestinian territories, when its the result in all previous Israel incursions, then you have a policy.... and its a disservice to future generations of Israelis who will live with the consequence.

[darius]

Poetry in a sense that it sounds nice but that's all it does. I can quote the Bible, the Torah, and the Koran with pretty words, Darius, I doubt I will get far as far as practical application for the matter at hand.



I doubt anyone would disagree with this.


Which is why your stance to me was a bit perplexing.




That right there tells me that you are seeing the Israelis as targeting "every beast". As a matter of fact, people are asking why Israelis and US are not ruthless enough. (http://tinyurl.com/h6h5w)

It's obvious Misha doesn't have any alternatives, but if you do, I would seriously love to hear them.


there is disregard for human life on both sides. that's all i'm saying. simply nothing more than that. i'm not measuring one against the other and i'm not saying israel doesn't use restraint. i make no apologies for not being able to buy into some overly-glorified catch phrase like "collateral damage". the bottomline is this . . . all this fighting and there hasn't been even an ounce of change in the situation. not one single hint of progress, either by hezbollah blindly firing rockets into Israel or Israel targeting hezbollah in Lebanon. asking me if i have alternatives could mildly imply that the current mechanism applied to quell the violence is bearing fruit, but alas, it is not. while i don't have some specific detailed plan for solving this mess (if i did, i'd either be filthy rich or i'd have a bounty on my head), but i believe it lies with this nation. if there wasn't always some sort of shady, misguided agenda and rather a genuine desire to address the core problems which have so grossly manifested themselves there, America could make the difference. money and power often, far too often, undermine the will to do and carry out what is just -- not just talk about it, but actually do it.

do you trust our leaders to do what is just and best for the majority? i certainly don't, but that doesn't mean i've lost faith in the possibility of that happening.

[Penelicious]

Of course Civilian death tolls are going to be higher in Lebanon considering that Hezbollah runs into the civilian homes WELL AWARE that there are civilians in there and then cries bloody murder after those same homes are bombed.

please...

and BTW, where are these stats from? You chastize Leon for quoting/linking the NY Post but then provide numbers without any sort of reference? :disappoin

[Leon]

First and foremost, you provide a link to the NYPOST.... please try to refrain providing links to Rupert Murdock's publications if you want to maintain an objective debate....that is far from a world consesus of people asking why they havent hit israel hard enough...... thats number one...

Number one: Look at the context it was provided with. I neither agree nor disagree with the author's stance. Again, context is everything.


number two, we can debate ideology back and forth all day, regarding who provoked what, and how to respond, and each is entitled to his or her opinion, however facts on the ground cannot be disputed, and they are:
That's priceless. You dismiss the going back and forth and yet go the same route in comparing casualties?



Lebanese death toll: approaching 1,000 (with 90% being civilian) and almost 3,500 injured......

Israeli death toll: 94 Israelis killed (over half are IDF soldiers)
That's coming from someone who has little knowledge as to why. Probably doesn't care.

The Lebanese have Hizzbolah in their government. True? They are either afraid of them or they are not, no matter. The Hizzbulah run Lebanon now and I doubt all Lebanese are happy about that.


The Hizzbolah hide amongst civilians? Do they shoot their Katyusha's in the midst of civilian buildings, hospitals and schools?



"Look what they did to this place," Dr. Fatah said, shaking his head. "Why in the world would the Israelis target a hospital?"




The probable answer was found a few hours later in a field nearby. Hidden in the tall grass were the burned remnants of a rocket-launcher.

Confronted with the evidence, Dr. Fatah admitted his hospital could have been used as a site from which to fire rockets into Israel.
Oops. (http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=ae679beb-d2be-40a4-8e74-8e581c1bf1ca&k=16670&p=1)

You may want more background information and not from NY Post or even a US source (http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,19960056-5006301,00.html).

Furthermore, Israelies are spending time in shelters. They are living there, hence the low number of Israeli casualties.

But wait, in your comparison you've tried to ignore the pink elephant in the living room. Who are the Israelis targeting? Who are the Hizzbulah targeting? The IDF? Your biased is so obvious you can see it a mile away.


Israeli Infrastructure: untouched.

Really? This is news. Maybe you need to read more of the Israeli publications, even the left wing ones like Ha'aretz?

[Defekted]

there is disregard for human life on both sides. that's all i'm saying. simply nothing more than that. i'm not measuring one against the other and i'm not saying israel doesn't use restraint. i make no apologies for not being able to buy into some overly-glorified catch phrase like "collateral damage". the bottomline is this . . . all this fighting and there hasn't been even an ounce of change in the situation. not one single hint of progress, either by hezbollah blindly firing rockets into Israel or Israel targeting hezbollah in Lebanon. asking me if i have alternatives could mildly imply that the current mechanism applied to quell the violence is bearing fruit, but alas, it is not. while i don't have some specific detailed plan for solving this mess (if i did, i'd either be filthy rich or i'd have a bounty on my head), but i believe it lies with this nation. if there wasn't always some sort of shady, misguided agenda and rather a genuine desire to address the core problems which have so grossly manifested themselves there, America could make the difference. money and power often, far too often, undermine the will to do and carry out what is just -- not just talk about it, but actually do it.

do you trust our leaders to do what is just and best for the majority? i certainly don't, but that doesn't mean i've lost faith in the possibility of that happening.


I do agree, the solution lies with the states. I mentioned it in a pervious post some two weeks ago.

As for this violence bearing fruit, it has been a total disaster for the Israelis political and militarily, and for the Lebanese civilians who will live with the damage.

Nothing scares more Lebanese than hezbullah becoming STRONGER from this, and by all accounts, they have been incredibly strenghtened on the political front, and weakened slightly with its military (far less damage than the initial Israel hopes)...
One lebanese friend put it perfectly, we are fucked it Israel wins, and we are fucked if hezbullah wins.... they were becoming isolated and now they are the darlings of the Arab street and has little to no incentive of disarming.... its gonna be a huge dilemma for the lebanese when this is over......

As for Israel, they have been humbled by Hezbollah, they have taken heavy military casualties, and have not even come close to slowing the rocket barrage from hezbollah...... they have yet to secure a single village (breakout fights are occuring still in Bint Jbeil)..... and now they have world opinion (who in the beginning was entirely for Israel, and now the opposite can be said)..... all moral highground has been lost with the scale of destruction and devastation that the Lebanese are dealing with......

so this conflict is a lose/lose ..... with only hezbullah and Iran gaining....

[Leon]

there is disregard for human life on both sides. that's all i'm saying.

Of course there is. But there are differences even in that disregard, Darius. That's what happens when one side targets civilians and the other is defending themselves. You have a country, surrounded by enemies who do not hide the fact that you are their enemy and they want nothing more than to "push all the Jews in to the sea". Iran does it every day.

What do you do? I honestly don't have an answer. I WISH there was an alternative, I wish this could be resolved but we have no leaders left who can lead, we only have leaders who can finger point.

And for the record, I thought Israeli's response to the initial HAMAS kidnapping was wrong, for it showed Hizzbolah what to do in order to get the whole area going. But that's water under the bridge. I want to hear about solutions NOW, not who has done what to the other.

[Defekted]

Number one: Look at the context it was provided with. I neither agree nor disagree with the author's stance. Again, context is everything.


That's priceless. You dismiss the going back and forth and yet go the same route in comparing casualties?

I dismissed going back and forth about the reason for the flighting, the reason there is conflict, the conflict of ideology, all abstract topics that require hours of debate, something I and you probably dont have time for, but we can discuss the raw facts on the ground, statistics, numbers clear as day to reflect the issues of force, is that a better explanation for you of what I was trying to discuss, lets hope so, or I can break out the pictionary, and draw stick figures.



That's coming from someone who has little knowledge as to why. Probably doesn't care.

The Lebanese have Hizzbolah in their government. True? They are either afraid of them or they are not, no matter. The Hizzbulah run Lebanon now and I doubt all Lebanese are happy about that.


The Hizzbolah hide amongst civilians? Do they shoot their Katyusha's in the midst of civilian buildings, hospitals and schools?

Ok, so did you read ANYTHING that I posted in the previous post? Can you honestly tell me that the THOUSANDS of artillery shelling and bombing of the entire country of Lebanon (many that arent hezbullah strong holds) are all in response to a katusha rocket? please answer carefully, cause the debate will be ended right there..... the bombings of "hezbollah offices" in southern beirut (which now looks like a A-bomb hit it) are justified military retaliation? the bombing that killed 23 vegetable workers yesterday in a factory IN NORTHEAST lebanon was a threat? katusha's have a 12 mile radius ... so thats an aweful lot of damage and death to responding to "the firing of rockets behind schools and hospitals" ... its a hell of a disclaimer for the indiscrimiate destruction of the entire country.....







You may want more background information and not from NY Post or even a US source (http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,19960056-5006301,00.html).

so you post an Australian newspaper instead? with a right stance.... come on man, if you want I can post an editorial from Bangledash thatll make you think the States is the great satan... no need to post garbage on either side of the discussion..... or obscure right wing stances on anything, GHB is doing a hell of a job with that already, we dont need two people on the job.




Furthermore, Israelies are spending time in shelters. They are living there, hence the low number of Israeli casualties.

You telling me about "priceless" .. this one gets the blue ribbon.... you think the katushas that hezbullah is firing would come REMOTELY close to the destruction that is occuring as we speak via Israeli warplanes.... if every single Israeli was having a picnic outdoors I doubt the death toll would be significantly higher....you siad it yourself, context is everything, so stand by that and lets compare the scale.... so others on this board wont be fooled by cheap comparisons that dont hold water.... yes the katushas are causing innocent deaths, very sad and regrettable indeed, but they are A JOKE to whats happening in Lebanon, people talk about moral equivalency regarding the issue and how hezbollah and israel should not be on the same playing field, well the same goes for military equivalency, so comparing the damage that the Israelis are dealing with to what is happening in Lebanon is a complete bias joke......




But wait, in your comparison you've tried to ignore the pink elephant in the living room. Who are the Israelis targeting? Who are the Hizzbulah targeting? The IDF? Your biased is so obvious you can see it a mile away.

I think I painted a clear picture on what I think Israel is doing, and it isnt to destroy all rocket launchers.... Its called collective punishment, and there is enough historic literature on this for you to read up on..... it has been policy for Israel to inflict collective punishment on many for the wrongful acts of a few with the intentions of creating a backlash against the terrorists...however as is the case with hezbullah (created in 82 to fight the illegal occupation of lebanon) and hamas (also in response to the occupation of the palestinian territories) this policy only backfires time and time again, and I would love for you to discredit this....



Really? This is news. Maybe you need to read more of the Israeli publications, even the left wing ones like Ha'aretz?

now we're talking! please post as many Ha'aretz op-eds as you would like, lol....you wont hear me object ;)

[Defekted]

I want to hear about solutions NOW, not who has done what to the other.

here is my attempt for a home run swing....

take the cards out of Hezbullahs hands ....

1) exchange ALL prisoners (i think both parties have agreed in principle to this)
2) return sheeba farms (the only claim that hezbollah has left in its stance as a resistence movement, with that back in lebanese hands, there wont be anymore occupied lebanese lands to fight for)
3) immediate withdrawal of Israel troops from Lebanon (hezbollah already said they wont stop fighting until every isreal boot if off lebanese soil)
4) Lebanese army deployed in the south and is enforced by an internation presence (of at least 15,000 UN troops)
5) disarm hezbullah (probably integrate into the lebanese army - command and control from then on belongs to the lebanese government and not the radical leadership of Hezb.; this is what was done with the other militias after the civil war and has worked)
6) massive humanitarian aid from the international community come in throughout the process.......


and this only solves this isolated crises, the UNDERLYING issue, and is agreed upon by most intellectuals and politicians in the world is the Palestinian issue... a withdrawal to 67 borders, with east jerusalem as the palestinian capital, some sort of compensation to the millions of refugess, and the dismantling of illegal settlments.....

maybe THEN we can see a period of sustained peace

[Micha]

LOL! You saw peacenik and Hitler in one post and you put the two together, not me. Your stance is of a pacifist, peacenik. If you think that's an insult then so be it. Kinda ironic you would find that as an insult though.



Now I am totally confused. IS it an answer or isn't it? Can you elaborate?


If war is not the answer than what is?

Well here is my answer.....

The practical instruments of negotiation, aid, and development assistance!
The psychological instrument of respect for human dignity and equality!
And the political instruments of human, juridical, and civil rights!

These, to me, provide a more effective, just, and moral answer.

[Defekted]

The practical instruments of negotiation, aid, and development assistance!
The psychological instrument of respect for human dignity and equality!
And the political instruments of human, judicial, and civil rights!


I couldnt agree more

[Defekted]

Of course Civilian death tolls are going to be higher in Lebanon considering that Hezbollah runs into the civilian homes WELL AWARE that there are civilians in there and then cries bloody murder after those same homes are bombed.

please...

and BTW, where are these stats from? You chastize Leon for quoting/linking the NY Post but then provide numbers without any sort of reference? :disappoin

take your pick, cnn, msnbc, fox, time, cbsnews, nyt, fox .... pretty accurate numbers....

and i think i explained that hezbollah running into civilian homes isnt an accurate way of explaining the death and destruction of the entire country of Lebanon.

[Leon]

I dismissed going back and forth about the reason for the flighting, the reason there is conflict, the conflict of ideology, all abstract topics that require hours of debate, something I and you probably dont have time for, but we can discuss the raw facts on the ground, statistics, numbers clear as day to reflect the issues of force, is that a better explanation for you of what I was trying to discuss, lets hope so, or I can break out the pictionary, and draw stick figures.

Statistics without context is just biased numbers. Someone said, there are statistics, more statistics and lies. I am unimpressed with your argument thus far. It lacks practical application and logic.




Ok, so did you read ANYTHING that I posted in the previous post? Can you honestly tell me that the THOUSANDS of artillery shelling and bombing of the entire country of Lebanon (many that arent hezbullah strong holds) are all in response to a katusha rocket?

If you like numbers, perhaps you can tell the class how many Katyusha's landed in Israel thus far. :) Anything is justified in war if you are hiding behind civilians. Israel is no US since the missiles are landing in the homes of Israelis, not somewhere in Iraq.



so you post an Australian newspaper instead? with a right stance.... come on man,

Huh? I can easily provide you with other papers that state the same thing. There were pictures, did you ignore them and went skipping ahead? Did you miss the one with the hospital? Talk about bias.


if you want I can post an editorial from Bangledash thatll make you think the States is the great satan...

Commentary? Sure, you can find anything you want.


or obscure right wing stances on anything, GHB is doing a hell of a job with that already, we dont need two people on the job.

Come off it. I ain't your regular kiddie who hasn't grasped the history and the context of the current strife. That pigeonholing won't help you since most people here know I am a Liberal, a true one. Trying to throw a label just to discredit me won't do much for your side of the debate. It won't be a filler for true debate.



You telling me about "priceless" .. this one gets the blue ribbon.... you think the katushas that hezbullah is firing would come REMOTELY close to the destruction that is occuring as we speak via Israeli warplanes....

I really don't care. Israel is on the defense, and the best defense is offense. If you don't like their tactics I'd like to hear alternatives. Thus far that alternative has been vapid in this thread.


if every single Israeli was having a picnic outdoors I doubt the death toll would be significantly higher....


That's because Katyusha's are pretty dated technology. Or are you saying that the Hizzbolah are trying to MINIMIZE Israeli's deaths?


yes the katushas are causing innocent deaths, very sad and regrettable indeed, but they are A JOKE to whats happening in Lebanon, people talk about moral equivalency regarding the issue and how hezbollah and israel should not be on the same playing field, well the same goes for military equivalency, so comparing the damage that the Israelis are dealing with to what is happening in Lebanon is a complete bias joke......


Whoa, wait a minute. Are you saying if someone smaller than me, comes up to me slaps me, and I knock him out someone should complain to me about disproportionate use of force? Are you serious? One piece of shit terrorists are hiding amongst women and children while lobbing rockets over the border and you want to dismiss it with a "yah but..."? Sorry, I am no fan of the "yah butters".

"Jews were killed in Holocaust but...."

"Israel has pulled out from Lebanon in 2000, but"

"Israel has pulled out of Giza, but"

"Israel has tried to get a peace going but".

Too many "yah butters", as I call them, on the web. There IS no but. Not when your lives and your country is in danger.


I think I painted a clear picture on what I think Israel is doing, and it isnt to destroy all rocket launchers.... Its called collective punishment, and there is enough historic literature on this for you to read up on.....


Along with other conspiracy books like Protocols Elders of Zion, I presume? It won't come from objective sources, I can tell you that.


it has been policy for Israel to inflict collective punishment on many for the wrongful acts of a few with the intentions of creating a backlash against the terrorists...however as is the case with hezbullah (created in 82 to fight the illegal occupation of lebanon) and hamas (also in response to the occupation of the palestinian territories) this policy only backfires time and time again, and I would love for you to discredit this....


There's nothing to discredit. Israel pulled out of South Lebanon in 2000, six years ago. There were 3000 UNFIL peace keeping soldiers in the buffer. That "peace" was a time for the Hizzbolah to get armed by Syria and Iran and nothing more. Israel did pull out, is even STILL going to go ahead with the WB pull out.

What's the problem? What was Israel doing except existing that Hizzbolah needed to kidnap soldiers?

[Micha]

Leon the problem is that you are looking for a logical and applicable answer when we are looking for a humane answer. So with that beng said what solution do you think we are possibly all going to agree with?

[Leon]

1) exchange ALL prisoners (i think both parties have agreed in principle to this)

Oh goodness.

According to the BBC "the prisoner Hezbollah wants most" is Samir Qantar. On April 22, 1979, Qantar murdered 28-year-old Danny Haran and his 4-year-old daughter and caused the death of another Haran daughter, age 2. Haran's widow, Smadar Haran Kaiser (http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/middleeast/Prosecute_Abu_Abbas.asp), describes the crime (she transliterates the murderer's name as "Kuntar"):


It had been a peaceful Sabbath day. My husband, Danny, and I had picnicked with our little girls, Einat, 4, and Yael, 2, on the beach not far from our home in Nahariya, a city on the northern coast of Israel, about six miles south of the Lebanese border.


Around midnight, we were asleep in our apartment when four terrorists, sent by Abu Abbas from Lebanon, landed in a rubber boat on the beach two blocks away. Gunfire and exploding grenades awakened us as the terrorists burst into our building. They had already killed a police officer.


As they charged up to the floor above ours, I opened the door to our apartment. In the moment before the hall light went off, they turned and saw me. As they moved on, our neighbor from the upper floor came running down the stairs. I grabbed her and pushed her inside our apartment and slammed the door.
Outside, we could hear the men storming about. Desperately, we sought to hide. Danny helped our neighbor climb into a crawl space above our bedroom; I went in behind her with Yael in my arms. Then Danny grabbed Einat and was dashing out the front door to take refuge in an underground shelter when the terrorists came crashing into our flat.


They held Danny and Einat while they searched for me and Yael, knowing there were more people in the apartment. I will never forget the joy and the hatred in their voices as they swaggered about hunting for us, firing their guns and throwing grenades. I knew that if Yael cried out, the terrorists would toss a grenade into the crawl space and we would be killed. So I kept my hand over her mouth, hoping she could breathe. As I lay there, I remembered my mother telling me how she had hidden from the Nazis during the Holocaust. "This is just like what happened to my mother," I thought.


As police began to arrive, the terrorists took Danny and Einat down to the beach. There, according to eyewitnesses, one of them shot Danny in front of Einat so that his death would be the last sight she would ever see. Then he smashed my little girl's skull in against a rock with his rifle butt. That terrorist was Samir Kuntar.


By the time we were rescued from the crawl space, hours later, Yael, too, was dead. In trying to save all our lives, I had smothered her.



2) return sheeba farms (the only claim that hezbollah has left in its stance as a resistence movement, with that back in lebanese hands, there wont be anymore occupied lebanese lands to fight for)

Like yielding and appeasing with a simple farm will cease the animosities, the goals of the Hizzbolah, Iran, Syria, and every other Jew hating country. Just because you see it in some paper, doesn't equate in to reality.


3) immediate withdrawal of Israel troops from Lebanon (hezbollah already said they wont stop fighting until every isreal boot if off lebanese soil)

Newsflash, Israel wasn't there to begin with. But if you are talking about now, that leaves a huge strategic area as a filler for something that Israel is tired of yielding; land that terrorists can use to lob rockets over the border.


4) Lebanese army deployed in the south and is enforced by an internation presence (of at least 15,000 UN troops)

UNFIL did such a great job, I am sure multiplying the effect of a 0 will yield something. /sarcoff


5) disarm hezbullah (probably integrate into the lebanese army - command and control from then on belongs to the lebanese government and not the radical leadership of Hezb.; this is what was done with the other militias after the civil war and has worked)

And how do you oversee something like this? If the Hizzbolah was already part of the Lebanese government you sure are confident that the terrorists would just lay down their arms and go in to a regular army? It worked wonders in Iraq.


6) massive humanitarian aid from the international community come in throughout the process.......


Finally something we agree on.


and this only solves this isolated crises, the UNDERLYING issue, and is agreed upon by most intellectuals and politicians in the world is the Palestinian issue... a withdrawal to 67 borders, with east jerusalem as the palestinian capital, some sort of compensation to the millions of refugess, and the dismantling of illegal settlments.....

maybe THEN we can see a period of sustained peace

All that from the Israelis and not much from the Palestinians except not to bomb the shit out of the Jews and only then we can get a 'maybe'.

It's not a good deal. It's not even an ok deal. It appeases the terrorists without much of guarantees.

[Leon]

Leon the problem is that you are looking for a logical and applicable answer when we are looking for a humane answer. So with that beng said what solution do you think we are possibly all going to agree with?

Yes, I believe there is a way. First, we need ditch the bias, stop taking sides or at least understand BOTH sides.

Then we can talk about BOTH practical solutions which WILL address the humanitarian aspect.

[Micha]

It's not a good deal. It's not even an ok deal. It appeases the terrorists without much of guarantees.

The same can be said about the military tactics being used right now!! It appeases the terrorists (yes it does!) and there are no guaruntees that we are stopping them....hmmm....

[Micha]

Yes, I believe there is a way. First, we need ditch the bias, stop taking sides or at least understand BOTH sides.

Then we can talk about BOTH practical solutions which WILL address the humanitarian aspect.

First thing that you have said that I agree with completely!!

[Leon]

The same can be said about the military tactics being used right now!! It appeases the terrorists (yes it does!) and there are no guaruntees that we are stopping them....hmmm....

Mischa, I never said that the current way is the perfect way. I just don't see an alternative for Israel. No one here came up with anything that would come close to being realistic and something that would be accepted by Israel AND Hezzbolah.

*I* don't have a better answer than what we have right now.

[Penelicious]

That woman's story was heartbreaking!

[Micha]

Mischa, I never said that the current way is the perfect way. I just don't see an alternative for Israel. No one here came up with anything that would come close to being realistic and something that would be accepted by Israel AND Hezzbolah.

*I* don't have a better answer than what we have right now.

And *I* never said a peaceful resolution would happen. All i suggested was to at the very least consider it. And to realize that WAR will not solve the problems it is seeking to solve. That is all. And I stand by it.

[Leon]

That woman's story was heartbreaking!

Kinda puts a face on the whole prisoner issue. Prior to that, too many think it's "just some prisoners".

[Defekted]

Statistics without context is just biased numbers. Someone said, there are statistics, more statistics and lies. I am unimpressed with your argument thus far. It lacks practical application and logic.

I thought I applied enough context around the stats, and they are far from lies. Im not pulling anything from moveon.org, and any other leftwing publication.... these are stats of the conflict to date from mainstream news sources....and if you are aware of whats going on, you cant claim not to know these numbers




If you like numbers, perhaps you can tell the class how many Katyusha's landed in Israel thus far. :) Anything is justified in war if you are hiding behind civilians. Israel is no US since the missiles are landing in the homes of Israelis, not somewhere in Iraq.

sure, around 3,000, last I heard.... resulting in a little over 30 civilian deaths. Everything is justified in war when you are hiding behind civilians? and you say your a liberal? lmao.... your a neo-con.





Huh? I can easily provide you with other papers that state the same thing. There were pictures, did you ignore them and went skipping ahead? Did you miss the one with the hospital? Talk about bias.

Commentary? Sure, you can find anything you want.


My point isnt if the pictures are credible, its the fact that we all can post pics and commentary regarding the this conflict, but id rather hear it from your words and not from an australian paper or nypost.... i read all of them and they all push agendas

as for the bangledashi op-ed, i was joking, not sure if you realize that....



Come off it. I ain't your regular kiddie who hasn't grasped the history and the context of the current strife. That pigeonholing won't help you since most people here know I am a Liberal, a true one. Trying to throw a label just to discredit me won't do much for your side of the debate. It won't be a filler for true debate.


thanks for setting the picture of who im dealing with here, i think I need to regroup and rethink my strategy since im dealing with a scholar on the middle east.

you are a liberal? there hasnt been ONE SENTENCE that was progressive or liberal....you have been pitching, verbatim, the IDF spokesman representatives that have been all over the news channels... all is justified in war? best defense is a good offense? fuck, im getting ahead of myself, thats the next quote.... i need to remeber to not jump to responses, excuse me.....all your quotes are neo-coservative foreign policy.... "best defense is a good offense" "fight them there so we dont have to fight them at home" ..... all these catch phrases sound alot like Bush, please dont ever say your a liberal, im proud to be one and your words dont match your claim




I really don't care. Israel is on the defense, and the best defense is offense. If you don't like their tactics I'd like to hear alternatives. Thus far that alternative has been vapid in this thread.

YOU DONT CARE about the destruction Israel is causing.... wow...... liberal for sure, excuse me for thinking otherwise







That's because Katyusha's are pretty dated technology. Or are you saying that the Hizzbolah are trying to MINIMIZE Israeli's deaths?

you stated clearly that there isnt much israel civilian deaths because they are in shelters.... so i stated that its not because of that, now you say its cause of technology.... whatever reason you can think of the point is, the israeli damage pales in comparison to the lebanese, and you then say its cause they shoot behind civilians to which I say (and to which you still havent given me an answer) that Israeli has targeted the entire country north,east, south, and west.....places nothing to do with hezbollah or its rockets......

I have no doubt that If Hezbollah had the fire power that Israel has, Israel would look like south beirut too, i think both parties are cruel and are driven by hate.....







Whoa, wait a minute. Are you saying if someone smaller than me, comes up to me slaps me, and I knock him out someone should complain to me about disproportionate use of force? Are you serious? One piece of shit terrorists are hiding amongst women and children while lobbing rockets over the border and you want to dismiss it with a "yah but..."? Sorry, I am no fan of the "yah butters".

"Jews were killed in Holocaust but...."

"Israel has pulled out from Lebanon in 2000, but"

"Israel has pulled out of Giza, but"

"Israel has tried to get a peace going but".

Too many "yah butters", as I call them, on the web. There IS no but. Not when your lives and your country is in danger.


im not a ya butter.... dont know what the holocaust has to do with anything ive said, as for pulling out of lebanon in 2000, they have in the past 6 years continuously violated lebanese soverignty with air incursions, and still maintains lebanese prisoners and controls lebanese lands (sheeba farms)

as for gaza, they left it imprisoned, not much of a gesture.... its choked off from the rest of the world, and more than three quaters live under the poverty level....palestinians cant move around the country for work, etc..... Gaza is a prison and was worthless to the Isrealis, who are concerned with the West Bank and the wall that is being built that is eating into the palestinian territories, causing palestinians to go through humiliating hours-long waits to go to a neighboring village for work..... (im sure you have a juicy YEA, BUT the wall is stopping suicide bombers from entering Isreal)



Along with other conspiracy books like Protocols Elders of Zion, I presume? It won't come from objective sources, I can tell you that.

are you kidding me? protocols elders of zion..... man, i cant even touch this quote.... how about the occupation of the palestinians for over 4 decades?, how about the arresting of anybody without due-process?, how about the torture of detainees? how about the policy of breaking hands of young palestinian boys who dared to throw rocks in the first intifada, or how about bombing civilian infrastructure in Lebanon and Gaza in this current crisis (since it doesnt seem your memory goes further than 4 weeks).... effectively shutting of water, electricity, and food to millions, that isnt collective punishment? silly me, must be reading the elders of zion books, need to stop doing that.... totally skewing my line of thought!





There's nothing to discredit. Israel pulled out of South Lebanon in 2000, six years ago. There were 3000 UNFIL peace keeping soldiers in the buffer. That "peace" was a time for the Hizzbolah to get armed by Syria and Iran and nothing more. Israel did pull out, is even STILL going to go ahead with the WB pull out.

What's the problem? What was Israel doing except existing that Hizzbolah needed to kidnap soldiers?

the kidnapping of the soldiers was wrong, and EVERYONE has said that. To destroy the country of Lebanon is also wrong and wont get them anywhere.... In fact, they are losing this battle militarily as well, so its looking like you trying to knock out the smaller guy is knocking yourself out......

[Defekted]

It's not a good deal. It's not even an ok deal. It appeases the terrorists without much of guarantees.

dont want to respond to every quote cause it takes too long.....

so ill take the last sentence you wrote. You shot down every step of the process I wrote as critical to ending this conflict and ensuring a sustainable peace. Appeasement is a word people like using to justify violence against violence.....

whats more important to Israel is the question. holding 4 or 5 men with grey beards and canes in their prisons? holding a worthless few-mile farmland?

or taking the cards out of Hezbollahs hands?

is this conflict being won by Israel right now? Is Hezbollah really weaker? if you think so, ill give you the number of my cousin in Lebanon....

he is 6 hours younger than me, but we couldnt be more different in politics. If you were to ask him about Hezollah before all this began he would have used every curse word possible against them, a typical christian racist entrenched in hate because of the civil war....now, he is applauding the fight hezbollah is doing against the powerful Israeli army and is hoping they win...... try to grasp what Im saying, this is one example, of the most unlikely hezbollah supporters in lebanon due to the Israeli offensive...... and Nasralla is becoming a symbol of resistence to the entire arab world.......

Israel is not acheiving any of their stated goals.....the destruction of hezbollah, a 10 mile security zone, nothing......

and on top of that, they lost all moral highground in the eyes of the world, and have created a new generation of hatred

so please tell me.... is it appeasement or is it logical steps to end the hate. The party in power in a negotiation will always be the one to give up more, because they are in position to do it..... what will hezbollah give up other than their arms? what will the palestinians give up other than the fight? they have nothing......

take the cards out of their hands and win the support of everyone including arabs..... which is key to marginalize the radicals....

hezbollah was ONCE the radicals, today they are the darlings..... a clear consequence to violence

[Leon]

sure, around 3,000, last I heard.... resulting in a little over 30 civilian deaths. Everything is justified in war when you are hiding behind civilians? and you say your a liberal? lmao.... your a neo-con.

I already made a statement on pigeonholing, if it makes you feel better, label me a Nazi or a Fascist.



My point isnt if the pictures are credible, its the fact that we all can post pics and commentary regarding the this conflict, but id rather hear it from your words and not from an australian paper or nypost.... i read all of them and they all push agendas
You have. I've seen the papers, I've seen the pictures.


thanks for setting the picture of who im dealing with here, i think I need to regroup and rethink my strategy since im dealing with a scholar on the middle east.
Someone who has lived there and Palestine proper. Can you say the same? I doubt it. Doesn't make me a scholar, but someone a bit more than an arm-chaired pundit.


you are a liberal? there hasnt been ONE SENTENCE that was progressive or liberal....you have been pitching, verbatim, the IDF spokesman representatives that have been all over the news channels... all is justified in war?
In practice, that what has been justified at war. Remind folks why Dresden was carpet bombed by England during WWII. Here's a hint: V2. Anyone whine about it back then? Nope, because when you are being bombed, your lives and country in danger, you do some fucked up shit, like throw two nukes on civilian cities in order to get a surrendered. The irony is that it has been proven to save more lives than it claimed.


The rest of your post is just a circle jerk, many hollow words which make little sense except perhaps to you.


you stated clearly that there isnt much israel civilian deaths because they are in shelters.... so i stated that its not because of that, now you say its cause of technology....
Huh? Do you even know what a Katyusha rocket is? It's fire and forget, there's no aim except vicinity. So yes, the technology sucks and the Israelis are in shelters. I am sorry, it can't be both? It just has to be one?


whatever reason you can think of the point is, the israeli damage pales in comparison to the lebanese, and you then say its cause they shoot behind civilians to which I say (and to which you still havent given me an answer) that Israeli has targeted the entire country north,east, south, and west.....places nothing to do with hezbollah or its rockets......
Prove it with an objective source. There's a challenge for you. Prove to us that Israelis are targeting civilians. And don't give me a cop out answer as you have in the past.


I have no doubt that If Hezbollah had the fire power that Israel has, Israel would look like south beirut too, i think both parties are cruel and are driven by hate.....

Finally! He gets it! So what's with the circle jerk before?


as for gaza, they left it imprisoned, not much of a gesture.... its choked off from the rest of the world
Study maps lately? Here's a trivia for "defekted" look up what non-Israeli country Gaza borders on.

Bah, fuck it, let me help you out.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1280000/images/_1283364_gaza_detail3_300map.gif

,
and more than three quaters live under the poverty level.. Right, blame the Joos! It sounds nice and convenient.


(im sure you have a juicy YEA, BUT the wall is stopping suicide bombers from entering Isreal)
Not my MO, but yours. :)


are you kidding me? protocols elders of zion..... man, i cant even touch this quote.... how about the occupation of the palestinians for over 4 decades?, how about the arresting of anybody without due-process?, how about the torture of detainees? how about the policy of breaking hands of young palestinian boys who dared to throw rocks in the first intifada, or how about bombing civilian infrastructure in Lebanon and Gaza in this current crisis (since it doesnt seem your memory goes further than 4 weeks).... effectively shutting of water, electricity, and food to millions, that isnt collective punishment? silly me, must be reading the elders of zion books, need to stop doing that.... totally skewing my line of thought!
Can anyone bring me a violin? Please? I need to break it out with the above biased and heavy laden whine, by someone who sees things through only one lens.


.. In fact, they are losing this battle militarily as well, so its looking like you trying to knock out the smaller guy is knocking yourself out......

You keep repeating that, but you know repeating something even a million times won't make it come true. This isn't Oz, and you are not Dorothy. :)

[Leon]

dont want to respond to every quote cause it takes too long.....

Why waste time on this "neo-con"?



so ill take the last sentence you wrote. You shot down every step of the process I wrote as critical to ending this conflict and ensuring a sustainable peace. Appeasement is a word people like using to justify violence against violence.....

Actually, I didn't shoot "every" step of the process. But if it makes you feel any better, by all means think that.


whats more important to Israel is the question. holding 4 or 5 men with grey beards and canes in their prisons? holding a worthless few-mile farmland?

Already stated who is in jail, and whom Hizbollah wanted. Nice empty try at rhetoric though.



is this conflict being won by Israel right now? Is Hezbollah really weaker? if you think so, ill give you the number of my cousin in Lebanon....

AH! A cousin in Lebanon! No wonder you are so objective.



he is 6 hours younger than me, but we couldnt be more different in politics. If you were to ask him about Hezollah before all this began he would have used every curse word possible against them, a typical christian racist entrenched in hate because of the civil war....now, he is applauding the fight hezbollah is doing against the powerful Israeli army and is hoping they win...


Then he is a douche for cheering a terrorist organization that is responsible for his country's demise. What can I tell you? If someone thinks that firing Katyusha's on civilians needs cheering for, he or she is a douche. Please extend my good wishes to him.


... try to grasp what Im saying, this is one example, of the most unlikely hezbollah supporters in lebanon due to the Israeli offensive...... and Nasralla is becoming a symbol of resistence to the entire arab world.......

Actually, all it shows is how shallow, ignorant, and gullible these Arabs you describe are.




and on top of that, they lost all moral highground in the eyes of the world, and have created a new generation of hatred

Oooh, the feared Arab Street! Fear the angry Arab! Ooooh. Know what? I could give a fuck about the generation of angry Arabs. Prior to 9.11.01 US wasn't doing much except stopping a Genocide of Muslims in Serbia and then in Kosovo and Albania. They weren't doing much except constantly telling Putin and Yeltsin prior to him to cut the shit in Chechnya (the Russians hated us for that for years). We weren't doing much than to help Muhajadeen repel the Soviets and save Afghanistan (and yes, I am aware that Osama was one of the Muhajadeen but that's neither here nor there, the intent was there, if even selfish). Then came 9.11.01. People went to work and got fried. Palestinians danced in the streets, gave out candy, honked horns.

Lovely sight, really.

Have a nice day, at least I know what you are all about. :)

[Defekted]

Prove it with an objective source. There's a challenge for you. Prove to us that Israelis are targeting civilians. And don't give me a cop out answer as you have in the past.


http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f236/Lebstal/lebbomb.jpg

This is a map provided by lebanese officials (presented to the Israeli ambassdor on Meet the Press and was not refuted by him) showing the bombing assault by Israeli ... it is as of 7/22 ... over two weeks ago (halfway through the conflict) so be sure that the red circles will be multiplied tremendously..... it comes out small when i posted this last week so ill help you out with the legend...many red circles symbolize over 30 strikes one red cricle symbolizes 1-5....it shows major cities, small towns, highway and road .....

the fact box (at the time july 22)
1) more than 300 killed and 1,000 wounded (you can times that by 3 now)
2) more than 500,000 refugees (times two now)
3) more than 60 bridges and 70 roads (now there isnt ONE highway in tact, making aid impossible to all the innocent people, effectively starving the country)
4) Electrical power plants blown up
5) more than 20 gas stations (there is now a complete shortage of gas - needed for everything from travel to running generators for electricity)
6) everything from factories, schools, chruchs, mosques, tv stations, hospitals, dams, and most of all civilians homes......


so my friend, please try to tell me that this isnt collective punishment to all citizens of Lebanon..... that this is all because hezbollah is firing from inside all these places....

[Leon]

That really doesn't prove anything as far as Israeli targeting civilians. It's a map of bombings. Were you there personally to see that the Hizbollah was not operating there?

[Defekted]

Someone who has lived there and Palestine proper. Can you say the same? I doubt it. Doesn't make me a scholar, but someone a bit more than an arm-chaired pundit.



Beyond having family in Lebanon, tons of family, suffering from this conflict, not working, not living, not going out of the house, and they are in the "safe" part of Beirut, beside going to Lebanon every other summer for my entire life, beside having shiite muslim friends who lost everything from their houses to their family members in the south..... no, cant say the same, shame, it sucks being an armchaired pundit

[Defekted]

That really doesn't prove anything as far as Israeli targeting civilians. It's a map of bombings. Were you there personally to see that the Hizbollah was not operating there?

wow, what else can I say.... hezbollah is the ghost of christmas past, operating everywhere, everyone has a rocket launcher under their bed, and are Hezbollah supporters,

you are living in some dream world man..... IDF can do no wrong!

[Leon]

Btw,


1) more than 300 killed and 1,000 wounded (you can times that by 3 now)

What are your sources on this? Is it on par with something like this (http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/08/07/D8JBLITG0.html):


The Lebanese prime minister says only one person died in an Israeli air raid on the southern village of Houla, lowering the death toll from 40.

Someone inflating the numbers. Sometimes they get away with it, sometimes, an "oopsie".

[Leon]

you are living in some dream world man..... IDF can do no wrong!

Look in this forum--not sure if Dmitry cleaned old post. I've bashed Israel more times than I can remember. So much for your assumptions.

And let me repeat, my post from July 12th:


I've been reluctant to comment on this issue, partly because I've disagreed with Israel's actions from the start of where an IDF soldier was kidnapped. I may be proven wrong sometime down the line but I just think they over-reacted and, once again, gave radicals a veto power. It's as if that's what they were waiting for because their "STATE" was imploding and Civil War was already raging. Why not get the Israelis in it and blame all the woes on them (again) rather than the Government (Hamas)?

Hizzbolah saw how well it worked for the Hamas and is now in the act. God knows they needed some PR ever since the IDF buzzed Assad's palace.

[Micha]

Lets focus on what we agree with.

Can't we agree that for both Isreal and Lebanon to achieve some kind of lasting peace, Hezbollah needs to be eradicated from Lebanon??

[Defekted]

Actually, all it shows is how shallow, ignorant, and gullible these Arabs you describe are.


Oooh, the feared Arab Street! Fear the angry Arab! Ooooh. Know what? I could give a fuck about the generation of angry Arabs.


is arab lifes that cheap to you? will you agree to me now that an arab life is just as valuable as an Israeli? please let me know...

is it being gullible seeing all the death and suffering and feeling a sense of rage against the Israelis? its not justified anger?

fuck them? who cares about a generation of anger and hatred? are you kidding me, do you want peace at all? are you not thinking before you type? dangerous man, dont speed type, you start to contradict yourself.....

are you a liberal or a racist? are you pro or anti war? im getting mixed signals....

i read your posts to micha saying you want a different way but dont see any alternative, and then you say to me fuck the arabs and you dont give a shit about more generations of hate...... you think this will lead to peace?

[Leon]

Lets focus on what we agree with.


Good idea


Can't we agree that for both Isreal and Lebanon to achieve some kind of lasting peace, Hezbollah needs to be eradicated from Lebanon??

Absolutely.

[Defekted]

[QUOTE=Leon;1524927]Btw,

What are your sources on this? Is it on par with something QUOTE]

are you kidding, i was retyping what was in the legend of that map provided by the lebanese government on 7/22 at that time it was 300... now its by all accounts from 750 (cnn) to almost 1,000 (reuters) dead

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-08-07T114756Z_01_L069031_RTRUKOC_0_UK-MIDEAST.xml

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/07/mideast.main/index.html

pretty reliable sources..... and this is not including "the missing" which are almost certainly rotting as we speak under the rubble.... lets just wait till this conflict is over, ill be sure to bump this thread back up with an updated number.....

[Leon]

is arab lifes that cheap to you? will you agree to me now that an arab life is just as valuable as an Israeli? please let me know...

Nonsense. I have more Persian friends (I know, not Arabs but I hope you can forgive me) than Jews.


is it being gullible seeing all the death and suffering and feeling a sense of rage against the Israelis? its not justified anger?

Of course, when you block out the real source of that suffering.


fuck them? who cares about a generation of anger and hatred? are you kidding me, do you want peace at all? are you not thinking before you type? dangerous man, dont speed type, you start to contradict yourself.....

Read my statement again. I think you need to read slower, not for me to type faster. ;)


are you a liberal or a racist? are you pro or anti war? im getting mixed signals....

Racist? Wow, if all else fails whip out the race card! Why not, it worked in America! Victim mentality for the win!

Listen, whatever your name is. Understand that the eighties fear mongering of Arab Street and how we should fear the Muslims because they will be mad is over... O.V.E.R. You want peace? Let's cut the shit and get to the real source.

Here's an excellent, one of the best, articles on paybacks written in NY Times (we agree it's not a "neo-con" source?). Because going back and forth, we can spend years doing so and go back year by year, all the way to BC and Bible times (old testament).

July 24, 2006
Op-Ed Contributor
He Who Cast the First Stone Probably Didn’t

By DANIEL GILBERT


LONG before seat belts or common sense were particularly widespread, my family made annual trips to New York in our 1963 Valiant station wagon. Mom and Dad took the front seat, my infant sister sat in my mother’s lap and my brother and I had what we called “the wayback” all to ourselves.


In the wayback, we’d lounge around doing puzzles, reading comics and counting license plates. Eventually we’d fight. When our fight had finally escalated to the point of tears, our mother would turn around to chastise us, and my brother and I would start to plead our cases. “But he hit me first,” one of us would say, to which the other would inevitably add, “But he hit me harder.”


It turns out that my brother and I were not alone in believing that these two claims can get a puncher off the hook. In virtually every human society, “He hit me first” provides an acceptable rationale for doing that which is otherwise forbidden. Both civil and religious law provide long lists of behaviors that are illegal or immoral — unless they are responses in kind, in which case they are perfectly fine.


After all, it is wrong to punch anyone except a puncher, and our language even has special words — like “retaliation” and “retribution” and “revenge” — whose common prefix is meant to remind us that a punch thrown second is legally and morally different than a punch thrown first.


That’s why participants in every one of the globe’s intractable conflicts — from Ireland to the Middle East — offer the even-numberedness of their punches as grounds for exculpation.


The problem with the principle of even-numberedness is that people count differently. Every action has a cause and a consequence: something that led to it and something that followed from it. But research shows that while people think of their own actions as the consequences of what came before, they think of other people’s actions as the causes of what came later.


In a study conducted by William Swann and colleagues at the University of Texas, pairs of volunteers played the roles of world leaders who were trying to decide whether to initiate a nuclear strike. The first volunteer was asked to make an opening statement, the second volunteer was asked to respond, the first volunteer was asked to respond to the second, and so on. At the end of the conversation, the volunteers were shown several of the statements that had been made and were asked to recall what had been said just before and just after each of them.


The results revealed an intriguing asymmetry: When volunteers were shown one of their own statements, they naturally remembered what had led them to say it. But when they were shown one of their conversation partner’s statements, they naturally remembered how they had responded to it. In other words, volunteers remembered the causes of their own statements and the consequences of their partner’s statements.


What seems like a grossly self-serving pattern of remembering is actually the product of two innocent facts. First, because our senses point outward, we can observe other people’s actions but not our own. Second, because mental life is a private affair, we can observe our own thoughts but not the thoughts of others. Together, these facts suggest that our reasons for punching will always be more salient to us than the punches themselves — but that the opposite will be true of other people’s reasons and other people’s punches.


Examples aren’t hard to come by. Shiites seek revenge on Sunnis for the revenge they sought on Shiites; Irish Catholics retaliate against the Protestants who retaliated against them; and since 1948, it’s hard to think of any partisan in the Middle East who has done anything but play defense. In each of these instances, people on one side claim that they are merely responding to provocation and dismiss the other side’s identical claim as disingenuous spin. But research suggests that these claims reflect genuinely different perceptions of the same bloody conversation.


If the first principle of legitimate punching is that punches must be even-numbered, the second principle is that an even-numbered punch may be no more forceful than the odd-numbered punch that preceded it. Legitimate retribution is meant to restore balance, and thus an eye for an eye is fair, but an eye for an eyelash is not. When the European Union condemned Israel for bombing Lebanon in retaliation for the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers, it did not question Israel’s right to respond, but rather, its “disproportionate use of force.” It is O.K. to hit back, just not too hard.


Research shows that people have as much trouble applying the second principle as the first. In a study conducted by Sukhwinder Shergill and colleagues at University College London, pairs of volunteers were hooked up to a mechanical device that allowed each of them to exert pressure on the other volunteer’s fingers.


The researcher began the game by exerting a fixed amount of pressure on the first volunteer’s finger. The first volunteer was then asked to exert precisely the same amount of pressure on the second volunteer’s finger. The second volunteer was then asked to exert the same amount of pressure on the first volunteer’s finger. And so on. The two volunteers took turns applying equal amounts of pressure to each other’s fingers while the researchers measured the actual amount of pressure they applied.


The results were striking. Although volunteers tried to respond to each other’s touches with equal force, they typically responded with about 40 percent more force than they had just experienced. Each time a volunteer was touched, he touched back harder, which led the other volunteer to touch back even harder. What began as a game of soft touches quickly became a game of moderate pokes and then hard prods, even though both volunteers were doing their level best to respond in kind.


Each volunteer was convinced that he was responding with equal force and that for some reason the other volunteer was escalating. Neither realized that the escalation was the natural byproduct of a neurological quirk that causes the pain we receive to seem more painful than the pain we produce, so we usually give more pain than we have received.


Research teaches us that our reasons and our pains are more palpable, more obvious and real, than are the reasons and pains of others. This leads to the escalation of mutual harm, to the illusion that others are solely responsible for it and to the belief that our actions are justifiable responses to theirs.


None of this is to deny the roles that hatred, intolerance, avarice and deceit play in human conflict. It is simply to say that basic principles of human psychology are important ingredients in this miserable stew. Until we learn to stop trusting everything our brains tell us about others — and to start trusting others themselves — there will continue to be tears and recriminations in the wayback.


Daniel Gilbert, a professor of psychology at Harvard, is the author of “Stumbling on Happiness.”

[Micha]

Good idea


Absolutely.

Ok good so we agree on that. Now, the only thing we disagree about is whether or not the current military tactics against Lebanon will produce desirable results.

So lets suggest other possibilities that could bring better ones.

Can't the USA and the UN impose an arms-free status on the Region; disarm all the parties (by force if necessary); and create the environment for peaceful co-existence. This would serve the proper interests of the Israelis as much as the Palestinians and Lebanese, and would prove to be the greatest breakthrough in international affairs since the end of the Cold War.

Once the UN is established and can enforce a lasting peace, the entire region can develop economically and politically for the benefit of all concerned.

In a relatively short time, this will reduce tensions in the rest of the Middle East, and between the competing cultures, and enable the current occupying powers to withdraw from Iraq.

How does that sound?

[Leon]

Can't the USA and the UN impose an arms-free status on the Region; disarm all the parties (by force if necessary); and create the environment for peaceful co-existence. This would serve the proper interests of the Israelis as much as the Palestinians and Lebanese, and would prove to be the greatest breakthrough in international affairs since the end of the Cold War.

I'd be for this IF the UN proved successful in the past. They haven't, Micha. They had a UN force under UNFIL, I believe 2-3K troops and as you can see, the Hizzbolah was preparing right under their noses. The Israelis would be hesitant with that plan, UNLESS you get the right make up of the UN force?

I don't know, just stating what the Israelis have been complaining about as far as UN.

Syria doesn't want to leave Lebanon, they want their own puppets there, in the government, in the form of the Hizzbolah. Iran, for their purposes wouldn't want to lose the Hizzbolah card either.

So how do we solve those problems?

[Micha]

July 24, 2006
Op-Ed Contributor
He Who Cast the First Stone Probably Didn’t

By DANIEL GILBERT


LONG before seat belts or common sense were particularly widespread, my family made annual trips to New York in our 1963 Valiant station wagon. Mom and Dad took the front seat, my infant sister sat in my mother’s lap and my brother and I had what we called “the wayback” all to ourselves.


In the wayback, we’d lounge around doing puzzles, reading comics and counting license plates. Eventually we’d fight. When our fight had finally escalated to the point of tears, our mother would turn around to chastise us, and my brother and I would start to plead our cases. “But he hit me first,” one of us would say, to which the other would inevitably add, “But he hit me harder.”


It turns out that my brother and I were not alone in believing that these two claims can get a puncher off the hook. In virtually every human society, “He hit me first” provides an acceptable rationale for doing that which is otherwise forbidden. Both civil and religious law provide long lists of behaviors that are illegal or immoral — unless they are responses in kind, in which case they are perfectly fine.


After all, it is wrong to punch anyone except a puncher, and our language even has special words — like “retaliation” and “retribution” and “revenge” — whose common prefix is meant to remind us that a punch thrown second is legally and morally different than a punch thrown first.


That’s why participants in every one of the globe’s intractable conflicts — from Ireland to the Middle East — offer the even-numberedness of their punches as grounds for exculpation.


The problem with the principle of even-numberedness is that people count differently. Every action has a cause and a consequence: something that led to it and something that followed from it. But research shows that while people think of their own actions as the consequences of what came before, they think of other people’s actions as the causes of what came later.


In a study conducted by William Swann and colleagues at the University of Texas, pairs of volunteers played the roles of world leaders who were trying to decide whether to initiate a nuclear strike. The first volunteer was asked to make an opening statement, the second volunteer was asked to respond, the first volunteer was asked to respond to the second, and so on. At the end of the conversation, the volunteers were shown several of the statements that had been made and were asked to recall what had been said just before and just after each of them.


The results revealed an intriguing asymmetry: When volunteers were shown one of their own statements, they naturally remembered what had led them to say it. But when they were shown one of their conversation partner’s statements, they naturally remembered how they had responded to it. In other words, volunteers remembered the causes of their own statements and the consequences of their partner’s statements.


What seems like a grossly self-serving pattern of remembering is actually the product of two innocent facts. First, because our senses point outward, we can observe other people’s actions but not our own. Second, because mental life is a private affair, we can observe our own thoughts but not the thoughts of others. Together, these facts suggest that our reasons for punching will always be more salient to us than the punches themselves — but that the opposite will be true of other people’s reasons and other people’s punches.


Examples aren’t hard to come by. Shiites seek revenge on Sunnis for the revenge they sought on Shiites; Irish Catholics retaliate against the Protestants who retaliated against them; and since 1948, it’s hard to think of any partisan in the Middle East who has done anything but play defense. In each of these instances, people on one side claim that they are merely responding to provocation and dismiss the other side’s identical claim as disingenuous spin. But research suggests that these claims reflect genuinely different perceptions of the same bloody conversation.


If the first principle of legitimate punching is that punches must be even-numbered, the second principle is that an even-numbered punch may be no more forceful than the odd-numbered punch that preceded it. Legitimate retribution is meant to restore balance, and thus an eye for an eye is fair, but an eye for an eyelash is not. When the European Union condemned Israel for bombing Lebanon in retaliation for the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers, it did not question Israel’s right to respond, but rather, its “disproportionate use of force.” It is O.K. to hit back, just not too hard.


Research shows that people have as much trouble applying the second principle as the first. In a study conducted by Sukhwinder Shergill and colleagues at University College London, pairs of volunteers were hooked up to a mechanical device that allowed each of them to exert pressure on the other volunteer’s fingers.


The researcher began the game by exerting a fixed amount of pressure on the first volunteer’s finger. The first volunteer was then asked to exert precisely the same amount of pressure on the second volunteer’s finger. The second volunteer was then asked to exert the same amount of pressure on the first volunteer’s finger. And so on. The two volunteers took turns applying equal amounts of pressure to each other’s fingers while the researchers measured the actual amount of pressure they applied.


The results were striking. Although volunteers tried to respond to each other’s touches with equal force, they typically responded with about 40 percent more force than they had just experienced. Each time a volunteer was touched, he touched back harder, which led the other volunteer to touch back even harder. What began as a game of soft touches quickly became a game of moderate pokes and then hard prods, even though both volunteers were doing their level best to respond in kind.


Each volunteer was convinced that he was responding with equal force and that for some reason the other volunteer was escalating. Neither realized that the escalation was the natural byproduct of a neurological quirk that causes the pain we receive to seem more painful than the pain we produce, so we usually give more pain than we have received.


Research teaches us that our reasons and our pains are more palpable, more obvious and real, than are the reasons and pains of others. This leads to the escalation of mutual harm, to the illusion that others are solely responsible for it and to the belief that our actions are justifiable responses to theirs.


None of this is to deny the roles that hatred, intolerance, avarice and deceit play in human conflict. It is simply to say that basic principles of human psychology are important ingredients in this miserable stew. Until we learn to stop trusting everything our brains tell us about others — and to start trusting others themselves — there will continue to be tears and recriminations in the wayback.


Daniel Gilbert, a professor of psychology at Harvard, is the author of “Stumbling on Happiness.”


I was just going to say this sounds like an expert from one of my psychology books. :keke. No wonder im fascinated by all this :shuffle

[Defekted]

Great article man, good read for sure.....

this is one from the NYT op-ed page also I thought wasnt that bad either....
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nicholas Kristof: In Lebanon, Echoes of Iraq?

Is Lebanon Iraq Reloaded?

Will It Be Equally Disastrous?


The Israeli war and US support for it seem to reflect the same misguided thinking that led to our Iraq war The U.S. position on the fighting in the Middle East is essentially: “Stop the killing. But not yet.”

Washington is resisting an immediate cease-fire so as to give Israeli forces more of a chance to destroy Hezbollah. But more time isn’t likely to accomplish much militarily, while every day of grisly photos on Arab television strengthens hard-liners — and Iranian and Shiite influence — throughout the region.

The Israeli offensive and the American support for it seem to reflect the same misguided thinking that led to our Iraq war. It’s a utopian notion that every outrage must have a solution, and that armed intervention is a useful way to reshuffle the Arab political stage.

Israelis are brimming with moral clarity, as we Americans were after 9/11. And they’re right: the Hezbollah attacks on Israel were particularly contemptible because they followed Israeli withdrawals from both Lebanon and Gaza. Israel should have been rewarded for those withdrawals, not subjected to rocket attacks and cross-border incursions.

But one of the oldest lessons in international affairs is that not every problem has a neat solution. The first rule in foreign policy, as in medicine, should be “Do no harm.”

Unfortunately, the legacy of today’s Lebanese adventure, like the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon and our invasion of Iraq, may be plenty of strategic damage.

Granted, there’s a counterargument that fills my mailbox and goes like this: What else can a country do when it is subjected to rocket attacks and cross-border raids by a terrorist organization committed to its destruction?

If that terror group finds a safe haven just across an international border, and the government and the army there cannot control it, then what other option is there but to destroy that menace?

Uprooting Hezbollah may inadvertently cause some civilian casualties, so the argument goes, but the number would be unnoticed if the victims had died at the hands of an Arab government (so far, 1,000 times as many Muslims have died in Darfur as in Lebanon). In the end, sitting ducks have to fight back.

The problem with that argument is that it’s wrong.

One day before the Hezbollah incursion that provoked this war, terrorists bombed train lines in Mumbai, India, killing nearly 200 people (about 10 times as many as had been killed in all the Hezbollah attacks on Israel since the withdrawal from Lebanon in 2000, until this month).

The Mumbai bombings were the latest in a string of attacks against India that have gone on for years, at the hands of terrorists operating with support from across the border in Pakistan.

Many Indians complain that their prime minister, Manmohan Singh, has been too wimpish in responding (a previous prime minister threatened war with Pakistan after a major terror attack in 2001). Yet Mr. Singh has wisely recognized that military action would only make the problem worse.

And there’s another example: Israel itself, in the past. Under both Ariel Sharon and Ehud Barak, Israel responded with restraint to attacks by Hezbollah. That’s one reason Hezbollah was on the defensive politically, and one reason Sunni Arab governments have criticized it.

For now Israel’s Lebanon adventure is playing out a bit like America’s Iraq adventure. It is bolstering hard-liners (like Bashar al-Assad of Syria) and undermining moderates (like King Abdullah of Jordan), while handing propaganda victories to Iran and Shiite militants.

Arab television channels have shown an unending stream of pictures of dead Lebanese children. We put our Arab allies in an impossible position when militants ask how they can work with a U.S. government that supplies the munitions that kill those children.

“Those of us who had welcomed Bush’s vision of democracy in the Middle East still believe in the promise of a free Iraq and a free Lebanon,” The Daily Star of Lebanon wrote in an editorial on Monday.

“What a pity to see Bush’s vision engulfed in the flames of the current shortsighted American foreign policy. What was once a dream of democracy is fast becoming a nightmare of unstoppable civil war and terror.”

President Bush never became minutely engaged in Israeli-Palestinian negotiations or oversaw shuttle diplomacy to Damascus the way Bill Clinton did. It’s true that the Clinton efforts in the end didn’t achieve much. Nor did the dovish efforts of Barak.

But we may end up nostalgic for American and Israeli diplomatic efforts that never accomplished much, for they work out far better than military interventions that leave us worse off than before.

Nicholas Kristof/NYT

[Defekted]

Nonsense. I have more Persian friends (I know, not Arabs but I hope you can forgive me) than Jews.

[/I]

Persian?

what you need is a healthy mix of Palestinian and Lebanese.... I have plenty (along with israeli americans) .... gives you a perspective.

your response of "where you there personally to know that Hezbollah wasnt operating there" speaks volumes of your unwillingness to accept any wrong in IDF's military actions.....

facts on the ground, is the arial bombings have devasted the whole country, least of whom, hezbollah.....

and im glad you referenced Dresden (a city I just visited this summer) .. the devastation look alot alike.... the only problem is there is a slight difference between the Nazi's and Hezbollah. One was a world power trying to take over the world, and the other is a small shiite militant group, and the bombings of beirut isnt doing anything but making Hezb. stronger........

[Micha]

I'd be for this IF the UN proved successful in the past. They haven't, Micha. They had a UN force under UNFIL, I believe 2-3K troops and as you can see, the Hizzbolah was preparing right under their noses. The Israelis would be hesitant with that plan, UNLESS you get the right make up of the UN force?

I don't know, just stating what the Israelis have been complaining about as far as UN.

Syria doesn't want to leave Lebanon, they want their own puppets there, in the government, in the form of the Hizzbolah. Iran, for their purposes wouldn't want to lose the Hizzbolah card either.

So how do we solve those problems?

Look I agree Hezzobula is bad. I agree the terrorists who were responsible for 9/11 are bad. But dont you see that how we REACT is very important. I hated that after 9/11 other countries hated US. We were the one who got attacked and they hated US!?!?!? This bothered me. And now i am seeing the same thing in Isreal. Hezbulla is bad. Isreal thinks they are reacting properly with the supprt of everyone. But in actuality they are creating more enemies. Doesnt this bother you?? Peaceful reactions would show the world that Isreal and America want peace not war. Then no other country would have any reason to hate us. And this would benefit us because beleive it or not we need other countries support. We should also practice what we preach. And if we all agree that peace would be nice and knock terrorists groups, arent we acting just like the terrorists when we resolve issues by causing even more pain and destruction? It's not about being a "pussy" its about leading by example! Some people just cant understand that and that is because they are mistaken. They truly beleive that being vulnerable is a bad thing. Its really not.

[Leon]

I admire Kristof greatly for what he has done for Darfur, for his tireless campaign to get something done there, for constantly writing about it. But I must disagree with him as far as the focus.

1. I don't believe US can solve every conflict in this world. AND IF they are the only ones that can, why is that? Why can't the EU or the UN which has BILLIONS in budget, can't get cracking here?

2. Bush is an ass, most people know that. There's some people who still love everything about him but I can't think that even Conservatives like him (especially with his stance on illegal immigration, export, outsourcing, pork spending, etc...). So I can't agree that Bush or anyone of his people can save the crisis.

I know this is a cop out but I don't believe any one country, even the US, can do it alone.

[Leon]

the only problem is there is a slight difference between the Nazi's and Hezbollah. One was a world power trying to take over the world, and the other is a small shiite militant group, and the bombings of beirut isnt doing anything but making Hezb. stronger........

To me, there's no difference. The only difference is the size of the organization. Both were anti-Jew, both tried to liquidate them. Both didn't save or empathized with women and children. Both use their own people for their own means. If Hamas were bigger I have no doubt they would do the same as Nazis, if not worse.

[Defekted]

I admire Kristof greatly for what he has done for Darfur, for his tireless campaign to get something done there, for constantly writing about it. But I must disagree with him as far as the focus.

1. I don't believe US can solve every conflict in this world. AND IF they are the only ones that can, why is that? Why can't the EU or the UN which has BILLIONS in budget, can't get cracking here?

2. Bush is an ass, most people know that. There's some people who still love everything about him but I can't think that even Conservatives like him (especially with his stance on illegal immigration, export, outsourcing, pork spending, etc...). So I can't agree that Bush or anyone of his people can save the crisis.

I know this is a cop out but I don't believe any one country, even the US, can do it alone.

The US serves as the ONLY party in the world who Israel will deal with as a mediator (since Israel has reservations of the EU and UN to answer you question of why they arent 'cracking' yet)

So the US has to play an active role in peace making, and the BUSH administration has had a hands off "green light" policy to the middle east, and this is where we are at, a unilateral disengagement policy with the Palestinians (no negotiations will lead to conflict) and a no end in sight was in Lebanon....... is there blame to go around, you bet, im the last person to endorse Hezbollah or Hamas, too bad the facts on the ground has them stronger than ever.... reaction to an action (just like your article) ... there is a reaction to the "shallow, ignorant" arabs in the region, now you can give a fuck or dont give a fuck, thats you, thats you MO .... but it isnt mine, and it isnt anyone who is serious about resolutions....

fuck the other side will never get anyone anywhere....thats redneck love it or leave it rhetoric.... and you are above that. At least you have been debating me better than most here.... so lets be serious....

reaction to actions... thats key....

bombs reacts to bombs..... bullets to bullets....death to death....

and unless you can wipe out every shiite muslim from Lebanon (40% of the population) than you will never destroy Hezbollah.....

so make the concessions, give what is wanted, take a bullet show a olive branch....

in the end (longterm) it will marginalize the idiots like Nasralla and Ahmediniaad making them sound like crazy radicals and will put Israel on the right track....

right now those guys making the fiery speeches are looking more and more legitimate to the millions..... and that doesnt play well for Isreal

[Defekted]

To me, there's no difference. The only difference is the size of the organization. Both were anti-Jew, both tried to liquidate them. Both didn't save or empathized with women and children. Both use their own people for their own means. If Hamas were bigger I have no doubt they would do the same as Nazis, if not worse.

the difference is the threat....

Nazis could actually wipe Israel off the map.... hezb cant... these Katushas are looking more like the macy's day parade than nukes raining on Israel causing widespread destruction......

so why not make these rag tag militants look like the fanatics that they are?

its all about fighting the ideology, not the katushas... you fight ideology with good deeds and not by bombing people and infrastructure..... if you cant agree on that then there is no way we can get anywhere on this discussion.....

[Leon]

the difference is the threat....

Nazis could actually wipe Israel off the map.... hezb cant... these Katushas are looking more like the macy's day parade than nukes raining on Israel causing widespread destruction......

Not to many people who are killed. I don't want to be an ass and start posting photographs of destruction, I think that will put us back to square one. I think you know that they can be destructive and they are more than Parade fireworks.


so why not make these rag tag militants look like the fanatics that they are?



its all about fighting the ideology, not the katushas... you fight ideology with good deeds and not by bombing people and infrastructure..... if you cant agree on that then there is no way we can get anywhere on this discussion.....

That was one of the points I agreed with you in the past. Most people don't know that Hizzbolah buys people via building schools, care, hospitals, but make no mistake about it, they do it to get something in return of a following.

In order to counter something like that, aid IS needed, that would circumvent their entire MO and render them needless in the region by the people who live there.

[Defekted]

Not to many people who are killed. I don't want to be an ass and start posting photographs of destruction, I think that will put us back to square one. I think you know that they can be destructive and they are more than Parade fireworks.

Obviously im using sarcasim to make a point. The innocent deaths are terrible and deplorable, but its not the Nazi war machine, its not .0000000000000001% of it. So my point is the Allies response to the Nazis (not like im even condoning Dresden) should not be comparable to this response against HEzbollah...its disproportionate.... we agree to disagree, you think its just right and i think it counter productive and cruel



That was one of the points I agreed with you in the past. Most people don't know that Hizzbolah buys people via building schools, care, hospitals, but make no mistake about it, they do it to get something in return of a following.

In order to counter something like that, aid IS needed, that would circumvent their entire MO and render them needless in the region by the people who live there.

ok, good so we got one good step

counter the social work of hezbollah by aiding the lebanese to win hearts and minds, awesome, love it, give me more, oh but wait, there is a disconnect..... how does this step work in parallel with bombing the shit out of the entire country?

:hmmm this is a real dilemma man.

[Leon]

counter the social work of hezbollah by aiding the lebanese to win hearts and minds, awesome, love it, give me more, oh but wait, there is a disconnect..... how does this step work in parallel with bombing the shit out of the entire country?

Obviously the step has to be taken after the bombing by both sides is done. Aid needs to fill the vacuum. I think it's a great opportunity for the entire Western World to show that radicals are not the only people that can help the Lebanese.

[ShaE]

Look I agree Hezzobula is bad. I agree the terrorists who were responsible for 9/11 are bad. But dont you see that how we REACT is very important. I hated that after 9/11 other countries hated US. We were the one who got attacked and they hated US!?!?!? .

Post 9/11 America enjoyed the largest amount of global sympathy/support EVER. ::suspicion

Quite the opposite of what you're saying. It was OUR ACTIONS after, and OUR RESPONSE that obliterated that sympathy and support and resulted in our current SHITTy standing in the global community.

[Defekted]

Obviously the step has to be taken after the bombing by both sides is done. Aid needs to fill the vacuum. I think it's a great opportunity for the entire Western World to show that radicals are not the only people that can help the Lebanese.

the problem there is the hatred is seeded and sowed by the time this is all done......and Israel wont be providing a dime. So what you have is a million people going back to the destroyed homes, try to rebuild, dig up their loved ones that are in temporary mass graves and rebury them in a proper burial, try to cope with the personal economic and life lost...... the hate towards Israel will be unimaginable.....

you see the opportunity at the end of this conflict, i saw it at the beginning.....

it just might be you being an optomist and me a pessimist.... but I think the damage is more than done and there will be issues for another 30 years....

[ShaE]

Great article man, good read for sure.....

this is one from the NYT op-ed page also I thought wasnt that bad either....
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nicholas Kristof: In Lebanon, Echoes of Iraq?

Is Lebanon Iraq Reloaded?

Will It Be Equally Disastrous?



But one of the oldest lessons in international affairs is that not every problem has a neat solution. The first rule in foreign policy, as in medicine, should be “Do no harm.”




That's a nice idea but ludicrous. I totally understand that situations can be worsened by violent response, even when JUSTIFIED....but to make such a sweeping statement as a "rule in foreign policy should be do no harm" is insane. Sometimes, harm must be done...military action taken...losses suffered. I don't mean specifically this conflict, but in general.

[ShaE]

. If Hamas were bigger I have no doubt they would do the same as Nazis, if not worse.


And if they had nukes, no doubt they'd use them- along with any other terrorist organization. I've no doubt.

[Defekted]

Post 9/11 America enjoyed the largest amount of global sympathy/support EVER. ::suspicion

Quite the opposite of what you're saying. It was OUR ACTIONS after, and OUR RESPONSE that obliterated that sympathy and support and resulted in our current SHITTy standing in the global community.


100% .....

The same can be said in this current conflict.... Israel squandered all the support it had (EVERYONE including the arab countries - which was unheard of) when it started this campaign.

[drumaboy]

can someone buy Defected the book, "Hate Regimes for Dummies" where it's clearly explained that Hitler and his empire didn't just come to power overnight, and that much similar to Hezbollah, Hamas, etc, once a group gains initial access with legitimization of their hatred in a government, it's only a matter of time till that ideology spreads, grows support, to the point where the other political groups are then forced out

uhm, yeah, no shit sherlock on the observation that Hezbollah is not as much as a threat as the Nazi regime, but!!!....there was a time when they were very small, and look what happened, they gained access into the government, they maneuvered to wipe out any opposition internally, overtook the government, got the power, money, control of the people, then went after the world......if you are that dumb NOT to see that Hezbollah or Hamas are trying to do the same thing, then i realy don't know what to say

[Defekted]

And if they had nukes, no doubt they'd use them- along with any other terrorist organization. I've no doubt.

I honestly dont think Hamas would use a nuke...lol...kinda would guarantee the palestinian destruction as well.... since Israel and the palestinian territories are about the size of jersey.... and i dont think hamas is entirely suicidal......

[Defekted]

can someone buy Defected the book, "Hate Regimes for Dummies" where it's clearly explained that Hitler and his empire didn't just come to power overnight, and that much similar to Hezbollah, Hamas, etc, once a group gains initial access with legitimization of their hatred in a government, it's only a matter of time till that ideology spreads, grows support, to the point where the other political groups are then forced out

uhm, yeah, no shit sherlock on the observation that Hezbollah is not as much as a threat as the Nazi regime, but!!!....there was a time when they were very small, and look what happened, they gained access into the government, they maneuvered to wipe out any opposition internally, overtook the government, got the power, money, control of the people, then went after the world......if you are that dumb NOT to see that Hezbollah or Hamas are trying to do the same thing, then i realy don't know what to say

look who came out to play.... how are you druma? miss you man, hope all is well ;)

using my "for dummies" joke against me, very very clever my friend.

not sure if you forecast is accurate, i guess we wont know for a very long time, what we can be sure of is the here and now... will Hezbollah become like the Nazis and try to conquer Israel? sending the jews to concentration camps and burn some alive in ovens or gas chamber... hmmm, who knows, but I doubt it... there is enough checks and balances in place for that to NEVER happen again, and if you dont think so, you may be more paranoid than me....

[Defekted]

is their organizations full of hate against Israel? surely, no doubt .... but so is the extremist elements in the knesset in Israel, the far right contingent of that part of the government is just as fanatical and religious and wishes death upon the arab enemy just as much as the other side.... thank god they represent only a portion of the government, hopefully one day, we can hope they get so marginalized that their hate rhetoric wont be tolerated anywhere...... but with every single death in Israel and Lebanon..... the hate grows, and both extremist elements in the respective society grows with it

[ShaE]

... you fight ideology with good deeds .....


:suspicion...elaborate

[ShaE]

100% .....

The same can be said in this current conflict.... Israel squandered all the support it had (EVERYONE including the arab countries - which was unheard of) when it started this campaign.

Sometimes it's the price you pay for going down the path you feel you need to go down. For right or wrong, Israel has NEVER had the support of anyone really, cept maybe us and various western european nations...I don't think they value foreign opinion of their actions much.

We, on the other hand, preach as if we're the model for the entire world...then act atrociously, and wonder why nobody wants to hear us up on our soapboxes anymore:disappoin

[Defekted]

:suspicion...elaborate

It takes a break in the cycle for something to work. By taking the legitamcy out of the fanatics rhetoric it will, in turn, strenghen the moderate arabs' hand. Which will help Israel in the long run.

An ideology of hate can only be defeated when you make the masses realize that the hate is not legitimate. This conflict has only strengthened the extremists on both sides, making the 'hate' temperature at an all time high, and have effectively silenced all the moderates on either side....

and we all know, its moderates, pragmatists, and secular leaders who pursue peace through negotiations and talks

[ShaE]

I honestly dont think Hamas would use a nuke...lol...kinda would guarantee the palestinian destruction as well.... since Israel and the palestinian territories are about the size of jersey.... and i dont think hamas is entirely suicidal......

You never know. I never woulda guessed terrorists would've been able to do what they did 9/11. Not the way and the extent of our structural INEPTNESS. I really don't presume to underestimate what terrorist organizations are capable of. They're by nature, unstable.

[ShaE]

... you fight ideology with good deeds .....

Could you have fought Hitler and his ideology w/ good deeds? No. Could you solve the problems that resulted in his rise to power w/ good deeds? Yes. Example : Marshall Plan. Actions you take AFTER removing the offending, unreasonable, fanatical party can be diplomatic, benevolent, etc.


we all know, its moderates, pragmatists, and secular leaders who pursue peace through negotiations and talks


Course, but some leaders do not respect that, nor is it possible w/ them. So don't you think force or " harm" is sometimes necessary against some in order for diplomacy/talks to become possible with others following?

[ShaE]

can someone buy Defected the book, "Hate Regimes for Dummies" where it's clearly explained that Hitler and his empire didn't just come to power overnight, and that much similar to Hezbollah, Hamas, etc, once a group gains initial access with legitimization of their hatred in a government, it's only a matter of time till that ideology spreads, grows support, to the point where the other political groups are then forced out

uhm, yeah, no shit sherlock on the observation that Hezbollah is not as much as a threat as the Nazi regime, but!!!....there was a time when they were very small, and look what happened, they gained access into the government, they maneuvered to wipe out any opposition internally, overtook the government, got the power, money, control of the people, then went after the world......if you are that dumb NOT to see that Hezbollah or Hamas are trying to do the same thing, then i realy don't know what to say

History is our greatest learning tool, yet our least implemented.

We're like big retards who repeat the same mistakes over and over learning nothing :disappoin

[Defekted]

Course, but some leaders do not respect that, nor is it possible w/ them. So don't you think force or " harm" is sometimes necessary against some in order for diplomacy/talks to become possible with others following?

Of course they are always cases in history that require force.... WWII was completely necessary, civil war in this country was completely necessary, french revolution, so many others that were absolutely necessary to uphold basic human rights and principles....but the list is shrinking incredibly, due to globalization the world is shrinking and the days of imperialism and colonism are ALMOST over. International bodies now impose a certain amount of checks and balances so that if there are artocities being commited, a much more powerful international force will stop it (i.e. kosovo, rwanda, etc) eventhough all to often it comes way too late to help the majority..... so now wars are really only gonna be started because of secterian differences (something that only education can eliminate) thats going to be the challenge of our generation, and the next few......

I never think War should be a choice for powerful nations, it has to be the last option, when all other avenues have been exhausted to the point where there is no choice anymore.....because you are powerful, you become an example by default......by the US preemptively attacking Iraq, it signals China, India, Israel, and Russia can do the same if they feel it is in the interest of national security. and that starts a deadly game that can end in several mushroom clouds around the world

[Leon]

Damn lady, some fine points there:


For right or wrong, Israel has NEVER had the support of anyone really, cept maybe us and various western european nations..
Very true. I think Israel used to care, a lot, now--they still do-- but not as much. "Hey, damned if we do, damed if we don't."


where it's clearly explained that Hitler and his empire didn't just come to power overnight, and that much similar to Hezbollah, Hamas, etc, once a group gains initial access with legitimization of their hatred in a government, it's only a matter of time till that ideology spreads, grows support, to the point where the other political groups are then forced out

He has a point here.


Could you have fought Hitler and his ideology w/ good deeds? No.


Another good point. I think he means the target is Lebanese, not the Hizbolah, though.


History is our greatest learning tool, yet our least implemented.

We're like big retards who repeat the same mistakes over and over learning nothing


She is full of good stuff today. :)

You know what pisses me off today more than any war, ideology, bias, etc...?

Ignorance. I believe it's not the religions that are to blame for the majority wars of human kind, but pure unadulterated ignorance.

[just b u]

Micha ....чтоб у тебя на лбу ХУЙ вырос ......


OH MYYY goooodddddd i cant lmao, ti prav bandit:yipee :yipee

[Micha]

OH MYYY goooodddddd i cant lmao, ti prav bandit:yipee :yipee


What did he say?

[Defekted]

wondering the same thing, lol..... guessing its hebrew, and since Just B U is LMAO about it, im guessing it was sarcastic.....

jusssst a guess

[Micha]

wondering the same thing, lol..... guessing its hebrew, and since Just B U is LMAO about it, im guessing it was sarcastic.....

jusssst a guess

but do you think it was mean? :upset

[Micha]

Post 9/11 America enjoyed the largest amount of global sympathy/support EVER. ::suspicion

Quite the opposite of what you're saying. It was OUR ACTIONS after, and OUR RESPONSE that obliterated that sympathy and support and resulted in our current SHITTy standing in the global community.

I see what you mean. But i still think we lost support when we started aimlessly dropping bombs in Afganistan when we had a specific target (Osama).

[Defekted]

I see what you mean. But i still think we lost support when we started aimlessly dropping bombs in Afganistan when we had a specific target (Osama).

I dont think we lost our support with the bombings in Afghanistan...we had a broad international coalition and support to topple the Taliban Regime....it was widey agreed that they harbored the worst of the worst (binladen and the rest)

we lost the support, the moral highground, etc... with the Iraq war.... a disaster by all acounts..... a war on the back burner while shit goes down in Lebanon, but at this very day is seeing 100 civilians die in secterian violence. Such a miserable, sad outcome

[Micha]

I dont think we lost our support with the bombings in Afghanistan...we had a broad international coalition and support to topple the Taliban Regime....it was widey agreed that they harbored the worst of the worst (binladen and the rest)

we lost the support, the moral highground, etc... with the Iraq war.... a disaster by all acounts..... a war on the back burner while shit goes down in Lebanon, but at this very day is seeing 100 civilians die in secterian violence. Such a miserable, sad outcome

As usual i stand corrected but you bring up a good point. This is a wonderful distraction for the US. We have heard nothing about Iraq lately..

[Defekted]

As usual i stand corrected but you bring up a good point. This is a wonderful distraction for the US. We have heard nothing about Iraq lately..

oh definitely, the ONLY benefit to this disaster in lebanon is that the disaster in Iraq is not in the news...bodes well for the republicans.....

[Leon]

I dont think we lost our support with the bombings in Afghanistan...we had a broad international coalition and support to topple the Taliban Regime....it was widey agreed that they harbored the worst of the worst (binladen and the rest)

we lost the support, the moral highground, etc... with the Iraq war.... a disaster by all acounts..... a war on the back burner while shit goes down in Lebanon, but at this very day is seeing 100 civilians die in secterian violence. Such a miserable, sad outcome

Yep, Afghanistan we had the world at our backs, we lost that. You know what though, it doesn't matter if we had support or not, that's besides the point. The point is that it was a reaction to terrorist harborers and it was a good one. Imagine if we concentrated even HALF the troops in Iraq right now in Afghanistan?

Of course, Iraq became a ripple effect. Iran started pumping its chest because there was no one to balance them out as Saddam did prior.

Still, getting rid of Saddam was a good thing. Although, I am not how good, or how bad. If you are going to replace him with a Civil War and then another tyrant under the guise of Democracy?

[Leon]

but do you think it was mean? :upset

Yeppers! And it wasn't Hebrew but Russian. :P

[ShaE]

But i still think we lost support when we started aimlessly dropping bombs in Afganistan when we had a specific target (Osama).

That's exactly what I said, we agree lol



...It was OUR ACTIONS after, and OUR RESPONSE that obliterated that sympathy and support and resulted in our current SHITTy standing in the global community.

[TheHipHopBillGates]

Yep, Afghanistan we had the world at our backs, we lost that. You know what though, it doesn't matter if we had support or not, that's besides the point. The point is that it was a reaction to terrorist harborers and it was a good one. Imagine if we concentrated even HALF the troops in Iraq right now in Afghanistan?

Of course, Iraq became a ripple effect. Iran started pumping its chest because there was no one to balance them out as Saddam did prior.

Still, getting rid of Saddam was a good thing. Although, I am not how good, or how bad. If you are going to replace him with a Civil War and then another tyrant under the guise of Democracy?

I'm not sure I agree getting rid of Saddam is a good thing. I mean what is the exact reason his attrocities prior to the first gulf war? If that was so bad why wasn't he captured then and prosecuted. Saddam keep the mess of a country in check. He was exactly what the US has a history of supporting all over the world a dictator, just like Pol Plot and serveral others. So not only is there a mess over there but the situation has created thousands of religious radicals and given them all types of propaganda for the future. The two major real reasons we invade Iraq we're so that we could abadon our bases in Saudi Arabia without fear of fear of invasion from Saddam(and our oil supply getting interruppted) and that a main source of terrorist acts by Al Queada which Bin Laden has been very specific about is "infidels" presence in the holiest of lands. I'm not sure if I agree with your reasoing for Iran acting up, although I don't discount it as a possibility, but I think it has more to do with the fact that that the US military is spread thin(because who was keeping N. Korea in balance?). Afghanistan was a good reaction, Iraq however was a big big mistake.

[Micha]

oh definitely, the ONLY benefit to this disaster in lebanon is that the disaster in Iraq is not in the news...bodes well for the republicans.....

Yeah I guess we can at least look at it like that :rolleyes: I was watching Jay Leno last nite and one of his guests was talking about how we need to cease-fire right NOW. He was completely balanced in his views regarding Lebanon and Israel, yet still felt that a cease-fire was absolutely neccessary. He also brought up a good point. Hezzobulla may be in Lebanon, but doesn't Iran or Iraq fund them??? Which lead me to the biggest reason this is a disaster. Lebanon is just the little guy in all this. Why are we taking it out on them?

[Micha]

Yeppers! And it wasn't Hebrew but Russian. :P

well thats retarded! Why would anyone speak to me in Russian?

[Micha]

That's exactly what I said, we agree lol

:kiss

[just b u]

but do you think it was mean? :upset
hey yeah it was really mean, sowwy but i'm just fed up with these anti war protests. i hate innocent pple dying just as much as u do but in this situation it is absolutely needed and justified. i know u're sayin all this out of the goodness of ur heart but u gotta face reality and stop living in la la land and face the harsh reality.

and i guess he spoke to u in russian because he thought micha is for misha and u were russian:shuffle

and unfortunately i dont speak hebrew, wish i did though.

[ShaE]

You know what pisses me off today more than any war, ideology, bias, etc...?

Ignorance. I believe it's not the religions that are to blame for the majority wars of human kind, but pure unadulterated ignorance.



:heythere Nice to see you back...lol
There is no excuse for ignorance anymore...books are everywhere, news is everywhere, even if you live in the most BACKWATER TOWN..you probably have a computer , a library, or access to SOME information. If you are ignorant, you have no one to blame but YOURSELF .

I agree, b/c no matter which way you look at it, religion breeds or at least ENCOURAGES ignorance. Some people respect science, respect empirical evidence, but choose to believe in faith as well. They are the minority- I believe MOST follow religion as a SUBSTITUTE for scientific answers, and for explanations to questions they can't make sense of in their own lives, or don't care to try to. That type of thinking isn't productive, isn't critical thinking, and won't do jack shit for you when you have to solve the serious issues facing us and the world today.

Look at Bush, he really couldn't care less what his DISapproval rating is, or what public response is , b/c he believes god ORDAINED him president and that HISTORY will vindicate him! That utter lack of present responsibility and lack of accountability is VERY dangerous- in anyone, not just him. Religion breeds that.

[ShaE]

I never think War should be a choice for powerful nations, it has to be the last option, when all other avenues have been exhausted to the point where there is no choice anymore.....because you are powerful, you become an example by default......by the US preemptively attacking Iraq, it signals China, India, Israel, and Russia can do the same if they feel it is in the interest of national security. and that starts a deadly game that can end in several mushroom clouds around the world



Agreed :agree

[ShaE]

I dont think we lost our support with the bombings in Afghanistan...we had a broad international coalition and support to topple the Taliban Regime....it was widey agreed that they harbored the worst of the worst (binladen and the rest)

we lost the support, the moral highground, etc... with the Iraq war.... a disaster by all acounts..... a war on the back burner while shit goes down in Lebanon, but at this very day is seeing 100 civilians die in secterian violence. Such a miserable, sad outcome

I agree dismantling the Taliban was necessary, we lost face in that in the process of doing so, bin laden escaped. PLUS we moved onto Iraq after that ( which was not only retarded, but the speed at which we moved on from Afghanistan to Iraq, after not even capturing bin laden, was too hasty ) entirely too quickly. Hell, we shouldn't have gone into Iraq in the first place, but if we had our minds set to, we should've finished the job in Afghanistan. Look at it now, taliban is back...terrorizing villages and the police, burning down schools...posting " night letters" threatening that NO GIRLS shall be sent to school or else suffer the consequences. Nobody should serve in the police or they and their families will die horribly.

Seems like a lot of half ass planning and jobs going on. Shameful. Talk about losing face. :disappoin

[ghb]

Where were these peace activists when russia killed whole villages in Checnhya when NATO bombed Kosovo? Where are these peace activists condemning homocide bombings against Jews? Because Jews don't dance in the streets & passout candy when innocents die or wave their dead childrens body parts in from on al jazeera cameras no one protests violence against Israel.

[just b u]

Where were these peace activists when russia killed whole villages in Checnhya when NATO bombed Kosovo? Where are these peace activists condemning homocide bombings against Jews? Because Jews don't dance in the streets & passout candy when innocents die or wave their dead childrens body parts in from on al jazeera cameras no one protests violence against Israel.
aaaamen brothaaa lol.

[Defekted]

Where were these peace activists when russia killed whole villages in Checnhya when NATO bombed Kosovo? Where are these peace activists condemning homocide bombings against Jews? Because Jews don't dance in the streets & passout candy when innocents die or wave their dead childrens body parts in from on al jazeera cameras no one protests violence against Israel.

There are peace rallys for every single conflict you mentioned.... different people protest different things, and trust me there are professional protestors that will attend every single demo that is organized, lol, ive met a few of these....

if your asking me why there may be more demostrations against the action of israels rather than the suicide bombings from palestinians....is because the death and destruction from one side is far greater..... that and coupled with the fact that when there is a palestinian family that was killed in their house by an israeli bomb intended for a nextdoor militant....your read in in page. 17 in a blip on your local tabloid post or dailynews...... but when there was a sucide bombing in tel aviv, killing 13, it would be front page TERROR IN TEL AVIV, the BUS 24 MASSACRE

so there is always a weird way of nature balancing things out.... Israel will get the media, and the palestinians will get the people demostrating

[darius]

peace rallies aren't always peaceful. most are wastes of time and energy. useless shouting, holding up signs, yadda yadda yadda. no practical element of sacrifice in which individuals, of their own free will are prepared to dedicate their lives to something they believe WITHOUT condition and WITHOUT projecting hatred, strife, contention, etc. the true peaceful protest died with MLK and Ghandi. all protests are nothing more than TALK TALK TALK TALK (usually in the form of some idiotic, 2nd grade worthy chant) and no ACTION.

Let DEEDS not words be your adorning.

participating/organizing a protest, imo, isn't a good deed. its just a bunch of useless shouting as an avenue for people to project their anger against something, while they might be verbally supporting something else. its about getting in front of the camera, TV time, phony attention-whoring. get out and actually DO something legitimate if you want to help the downtrodden.

there are peaceful and civil methods of raising public awareness about a problem. but a bunch of useless shouting, i promise you, will not turn people onto that cause. and if it does, its an attraction of the wrong kind of people who see it as an avenue of what i already mentioned. write letters, provide editorials, even hold public meetings where people are cordially invited to attend, or hold organized rallies in the true spirit of peace.

[rockit1st]

Yeah I guess we can at least look at it like that :rolleyes: I was watching Jay Leno last nite and one of his guests was talking about how we need to cease-fire right NOW. He was completely balanced in his views regarding Lebanon and Israel, yet still felt that a cease-fire was absolutely neccessary. He also brought up a good point. Hezzobulla may be in Lebanon, but doesn't Iran or Iraq fund them??? Which lead me to the biggest reason this is a disaster. Lebanon is just the little guy in all this. Why are we taking it out on them?

Lebanon turns their head to Hezbollah and allows this nonsense to go on. They should be held accountable. And I believe Syria funds Hezbollah.

[ghb]

And I believe Syria funds Hezbollah.



Both Syria & Iran, the nazis of our times.

[rockit1st]

Both Syria & Iran, the nazis of our times.

Seriously.:disgusted

Sometimes putting out the trash so to speak is just necessary.

[ShaE]

Seriously.:disgusted

Sometimes putting out the trash so to speak is just necessary.

Like I said earlier, history is our greatest resource...so instead of just " taking out the trash" how about we spend some time thinkin about how the fuk we got INTO these situations in the first place...and how these people became the way they are..such a threat to us.


Just a thought .

[darius]

Lebanon turns their head to Hezbollah and allows this nonsense to go on. They should be held accountable. And I believe Syria funds Hezbollah.

i think the lebanese govt is highly marginalized by hezbollah. they still haven't formulated a new identity in the wake of having syrian troops recently leave. strong leadership was executed and what remained was a big power vacuum. hezbollah, probably being the most hardened organization/entity has only been able to operate with more of a free-hand. i don't think that its the lebanese authority NOT wanting to take control of the situation more than it is they CAN'T take control of it. they lack the means by which to govern all aspects of their society. this is especially difficult when hezbollah has elements within the current govt. even if the opposition is great, when converted to taking action against hez., they don't have what it takes and desperately need help.

holding the overall lebanese govt responsible for the acts of hezbollah would be the equivalent of blaming hamid karzai for the escalating taliban presence in post-US afghanistan. while he would very much like to be rid of their influence, he lacks the power to be able to do so.

[Defekted]

peace rallies aren't always peaceful. most are wastes of time and energy. useless shouting, holding up signs, yadda yadda yadda. no practical element of sacrifice in which individuals, of their own free will are prepared to dedicate their lives to something they believe WITHOUT condition and WITHOUT projecting hatred, strife, contention, etc. the true peaceful protest died with MLK and Ghandi. all protests are nothing more than TALK TALK TALK TALK (usually in the form of some idiotic, 2nd grade worthy chant) and no ACTION.

Let DEEDS not words be your adorning.

participating/organizing a protest, imo, isn't a good deed. its just a bunch of useless shouting as an avenue for people to project their anger against something, while they might be verbally supporting something else. its about getting in front of the camera, TV time, phony attention-whoring. get out and actually DO something legitimate if you want to help the downtrodden.

there are peaceful and civil methods of raising public awareness about a problem. but a bunch of useless shouting, i promise you, will not turn people onto that cause. and if it does, its an attraction of the wrong kind of people who see it as an avenue of what i already mentioned. write letters, provide editorials, even hold public meetings where people are cordially invited to attend, or hold organized rallies in the true spirit of peace.

thats a little to dismissive of what people power can achieve. Do most demonstrations lead to deaf ears? yeah probably, but they also serve a huge purpose in the world....without a million people protesting on the streets of Beirut to tell Syria enough is enough, the Syrians would still be an occupying force in Lebanon, or the massive demonstrations all over the states a few months back to protest a possible harsh bill being passed that would have hurt illegals and their families in this country was very successful in scaring washington, and there are so many examples of people protesting making the difference in regions of the world.......protests also force the issue to be on the evening news and the papers, bringing a new audience to your cause, which can be invaluable......

this obviously cant be THE ONLY avenue, there has to be real activism in every aspect, I was at almost all the anti-iraq war rallys (including the million person one in washington)...those rallies coincided with hundreds in every capital in the world (literally millions of people were on the streets in 24 hours), did it stop the Iraq war? no it didnt, but at least it amplified the fact that Bush and Co. are alone in this, and will reep the rewards if its a success or hide their tails between their legs if its isnt......

[ghb]

Like I said earlier, history is our greatest resource...so instead of just " taking out the trash" how about we spend some time thinkin about how the fuk we got INTO these situations in the first place...and how these people became the way they are..such a threat to us.


Just a thought .

Umm. Let's see, these people (radical islamists) have been a threat to their neighbors & the world in general for a really long time, way before the US was even in the picture. Before the US they hated someone else. It's just how they take Islam & interpret it. You're question reminds me of asking a rape victim of what she did to get herself raped. How about we spend some time thinkin of how the fuk to get OUT of these situations once & for all & not have to worry about these people continuing to be a threat to our children. That's what is important instead of trying to find self-blame for something that was going to happen to us regardless.

[Defekted]

Umm. Let's see, these people (radical islamists) have been a threat to their neighbors & the world in general for a really long time, way before the US was even in the picture. Before the US they hated someone else. It's just how they take Islam & interpret it. You're question reminds me of asking a rape victim of what she did to get herself raped. How about we spend some time thinkin of how the fuk to get OUT of these situations once & for all & not have to worry about these people continuing to be a threat to our children. That's what is important instead of trying to find self-blame for something that was going to happen to us regardless.

What if there is a HUGE majority in the world who thinks the States or Israel are the rapists? what happens to your anaolgy then?

[Defekted]

Let me guess

"fuck what the world thinks"

[rockit1st]

i think the lebanese govt is highly marginalized by hezbollah. they still haven't formulated a new identity in the wake of having syrian troops recently leave. strong leadership was executed and what remained was a big power vacuum. hezbollah, probably being the most hardened organization/entity has only been able to operate with more of a free-hand. i don't think that its the lebanese authority NOT wanting to take control of the situation more than it is they CAN'T take control of it. they lack the means by which to govern all aspects of their society. this is especially difficult when hezbollah has elements within the current govt. even if the opposition is great, when converted to taking action against hez., they don't have what it takes and desperately need help.

holding the overall lebanese govt responsible for the acts of hezbollah would be the equivalent of blaming hamid karzai for the escalating taliban presence in post-US afghanistan. while he would very much like to be rid of their influence, he lacks the power to be able to do so.

That was very well put. Point taken.

[Micha]

Lebanon turns their head to Hezbollah and allows this nonsense to go on. They should be held accountable. And I believe Syria funds Hezbollah.

That makes absolutely no sense. If "Syria" funds Hezbollah than why aren't we attacking them? Why are we attacking Lebanon? Because they turn their head on Hezobollah is the answer you just gave. Now, I don't know anything about the country of Lebanon, but couldn't it be possible that Lebanon is the victim in all this. They are being pressured by Syria (or whatever country funds Hezbolla) and now attacked by Isreal? That to me is wrong. It has nothing to do with being biased, simply suggesting that I do not have enough information presented before me to make a moral, just, rational decision.

Now if Lebanon is NOT being pressured by Syria or Iran or whatever county funds Hezbollah, still, how do we place blame on the Lebanese? What this is telling me is that I can start a terrorist organization here in America and threaten Canada. Canada then has every right to bomb America because of this? I dunno.

And feel free to argue against this I really want to know every perspective!

[Defekted]

That was very well put. Point taken.

Bro be careful, I took a break from the DJ Booth to see what was going on in Current Events, and all of a sudden im 20 threads, and 500 posts in (going on 30 days with no food and water)

get out while you still can :lostit

[ShaE]

Umm. Let's see, these people (radical islamists) have been a threat to their neighbors & the world in general for a really long time, way before the US was even in the picture. Before the US they hated someone else. It's just how they take Islam & interpret it.

That's partially it, maybe even MOSTLY it...but not even close to being ENTIRELY it.


You're question reminds me of asking a rape victim of what she did to get herself raped.


Good, b/c she should.
She shouldn't ask herself what she did that got herself RAPED, she should ask herself what she could've done DIFFERENTLY to have avoided putting herself in the situation where RAPE would be EASIER, or more LIKELY to happen. If I'm stone drunk taking the train home at 5 am through a bad neighborhood and I get raped...is it my FAULT? No- it's the RAPIST'S fault. Did I do some PRETTY STUPID THINGS that helped bring about the situation? YES. Would examining my OWN BEHAVIOR that LED up to the horrible thing that happened to me SERVE ME WELL IN THE FUTURE??

I won't insult your intelligence by answering that for you.

[rockit1st]

Bro be careful, I took a break from the DJ Booth to see what was going on in Current Events, and all of a sudden im 20 threads, and 500 posts in (going on 30 days with no food and water)

get out while you still can :lostit

LOL. I hear you. I am a very political person. I care and like to know about what's going on in the world. Although somethings just aren't worth arguing especially w/ a liberal. lol

Also I love reading ignorant posts. :wallbang

[Micha]

hey yeah it was really mean, sowwy but i'm just fed up with these anti war protests. i hate innocent pple dying just as much as u do but in this situation it is absolutely needed and justified. i know u're sayin all this out of the goodness of ur heart but u gotta face reality and stop living in la la land and face the harsh reality.

and i guess he spoke to u in russian because he thought micha is for misha and u were russian:shuffle

and unfortunately i dont speak hebrew, wish i did though.

You dont have to apologize. And, trust me im not some goodie goodie two-shoes. I am actually a real big bitch (ask any of my friends/family) so obviously there is more to it...

[Defekted]

LOL. I hear you. I am a very political person. I care and like to know about what's going on in the world. Although somethings just aren't worth arguing especially w/ a liberal. lol

Also I love reading ignorant posts. :wallbang

Then make sure you dont argue with me or Leon cause we are both liberals ;)

[rockit1st]

That's partially it, maybe even MOSTLY it...but not even close to being ENTIRELY it.




Good, b/c she should.
She shouldn't ask herself what she did that got herself RAPED, she should ask herself what she could've done DIFFERENTLY to have avoided putting herself in the situation where RAPE would be EASIER, or more LIKELY to happen. If I'm stone drunk taking the train home at 5 am through a bad neighborhood and I get raped...is it my FAULT? No- it's the RAPIST'S fault. Did I do some PRETTY STUPID THINGS that helped bring about the situation? YES. Would examining my OWN BEHAVIOR that LED up to the horrible thing that happened to me SERVE ME WELL IN THE FUTURE??

I won't insult your intelligence by answering that for you.

There is no accessing the situation in a peaceful manor. The hate of these radical Islams stems far back and they instill it in their young ones. There is no getting through to them.

[ShaE]

instead of trying to find self-blame for something that was going to happen to us regardless.


Why must there only be one party at fault or "to blame"??? How in the world is accepting responsibility for the role YOU PLAYED in a large problem " self blame" and somehow A BAD THING :hmmm

It's fcking RESPONSIBILITY, and smart. Unless of course, in your mind, NONE of it is our doing, NONE of it was encouraged by us, and we have ZERO control over affecting change. It's going to "happen to us regardless" :rolleyes:

[ghb]

Let me guess

"fuck what the world thinks"




The world did nothing when Hitler first came to power, the world is doing nothing now, so yeah "fuck what the world thinks". But I'm glad that you took my post about islamo-fascism & turned it into an anti-Israel post. Let me guess, you think that ejercito de liberacion nacional who are a bunch of drug dealers & hezbollah affiliated murderers as freedom fighters too.

[Micha]

There is no accessing the situation in a peaceful manor. The hate of these radical Islams stems far back and they instill it in their young ones. There is no getting through to them.

Ok let me clarify something. My thread is not to suggest that peace is the answer to all the world problems. I agree with you in the sense that suggesting peace to these type of animals/terrorists, would be USELESS. But war can also prove to be useless, as I am afraid it is doing right now. For instance, how many Hezbollah members have we dismantled? How many innocent lives have we destroyed? You see where I am going?

[Micha]

The world did nothing when Hitler first came to power, the world is doing nothing now, so yeah "fuck what the world thinks". But I'm glad that you took my post about islamo-fascism & turned it into an anti-Israel post. Let me guess, you think that ejercito de liberacion nacional who are a bunch of drug dealers & hezbollah affiliated murderers as freedom fighters too.

But something is being done right now. The question is, is it the right thing?

[ShaE]

There is no accessing the situation in a peaceful manor. The hate of these radical Islams stems far back and they instill it in their young ones. There is no getting through to them.



Talk to some of the people who lived through the cold war, when they hid under their desks in school thinking any second the commie russians were going to nuke them. Or the people who lived through Pearl Harbor, and saw the hate/distrust of Japanese after.

Now we're attending the g8 summit in russia and it is our ally along with Japan being a MAJOR world player/business partner.

I'm not saying I think peace w/ fanatical , radical islamists is likely...I'm saying the people who JOIN them, follow them, are driven to extremism SOMEHOW. There are ways we can affect THAT, there are mistakes we can learn from...and try to create an environment that DOESN'T create extremism, terrorists, and a tone of hatred. You will n ever have control 100%, but you have to do what you can- people are people, and they aren't BORN this way, they're made. Figure some of that out, and you stand a better chance later on.

[Micha]

I'm not saying I think peace w/ fanatical , radical islamists is likely...I'm saying the people who JOIN them, follow them, are driven to extremism SOMEHOW. There are ways we can affect THAT, there are mistakes we can learn from...and try to create an environment that DOESN'T create extremism, terrorists, and a tone of hatred. You will n ever have control 100%, but you have to do what you can- people are people, and they aren't BORN this way, they're made. Figure some of that out, and you stand a better chance later on.

exactly..

[ShaE]

Although somethings just aren't worth arguing especially w/ a liberal. lol



You, are part of the reason why this country is going down the tubes. This "liberal" vs" conservative" partisan BULLSHIT that you all cannot get past, is what ties us up in STUPID issues like flag burning, gay marriage and VETOING stem cell research when we have BIGGER ISSUES going unaddressed.

" especially w/ a liberal" ....I'm not EVEN a liberal, and that is such a disgusting ignorant remark it makes me want to vomit. Look around you, the "conservatives" are in charge..you think these results are things to be PROUD OF, so much so that you can point fingers at LIBERALS??? Wake up, please. Do you even know what LIBERAL means? Most conservatives don't even know what CONSERVATISM is nowadays :rolleyes: Maybe I expect too much.

Are you so ignorant as to think all liberals are wrong, all conservatives are right? Christ help this country.:rolleyes:

[Defekted]

The world did nothing when Hitler first came to power, the world is doing nothing now, so yeah "fuck what the world thinks". But I'm glad that you took my post about islamo-fascism & turned it into an anti-Israel post. Let me guess, you think that ejercito de liberacion nacional who are a bunch of drug dealers & hezbollah affiliated murderers as freedom fighters too.

Im one scary muthafuka.... got terrorist and drug dealer in my veins!

[Micha]

You, are part of the reason why this country is going down the tubes. This "liberal" vs" conservative" partisan BULLSHIT that you all cannot get past, is what ties us up in STUPID issues like flag burning, gay marriage and VETOING stem cell research when we have BIGGER ISSUES going unaddressed.

" especially w/ a liberal" ....I'm not EVEN a liberal, and that is such a disgusting ignorant remark it makes me want to vomit. Look around you, the "conservatives" are in charge..you think these results are things to be PROUD OF, so much so that you can point fingers at LIBERALS??? Wake up, please. Do you even know what LIBERAL means? Most conservatives don't even know what CONSERVATISM is nowadays :rolleyes: Maybe I expect too much.

Are you so ignorant as to think all liberals are wrong, all conservatives are right? Christ help this country.:rolleyes:

:cheer

[ShaE]

The world did nothing when Hitler first came to power, the world is doing nothing now, so yeah "fuck what the world thinks"..

Appeasement was a direct result of the massive devastation and exhaustion the world suffered after WWI. Every action has a reaction...the world was at war for years, VICIOUS, devastating war. They made the mistake of "appeasing" bold people overstepping their bounds and allowing Hitler to rise, dangerously, to power in Germany disobeying just about every rule put in place by the treaty of versailles.

We should learn from that, but I think we can go TOO FAR to extremes to overcompensate (ex: invading Iraq). Doing too little in other areas ( Iran, North Korea ). It's a very fine line we walk now, and it's more of a problem b/c wars are fought entirely differently. Can't compare the warfare of 60 years ago to now...

[darius]

the greatest desparity in the arab world that fuels the terrorist-engine is the gorge between the haves and the have-nots. terrorist organizers, the brains behind the carnage, are very much a part of the haves or are hand-picked and hand-fed by the haves. the ones carrying out the acts are part of the have-nots, who have been raised in such desolate and decrepid conditions where the blame for the harsh reality around them have been molded into a great big finger pointing towards western policy and involvement. these conditions and accusations are not make-believe. our shit has stunk up the middle-east for a long time, and because those conditions existed, in which to promote such a great divide between rich and poor in arab countries, terrorism has a piece of what it needs to flourished. the exercise of western policy in the region has not been just. money spent buying oil or trading arms in the region has enabled regimes to get richer and the unwillingness of those regimes to enact programs and policies to promote positive progress of their infrastructure has marginalized a large number of inhabitants. it has pushed them so far to brink of insustainence that people have become desperate for change. BUT, keep in mind, while still not at the heart of the matter, that is only just a piece. now, add to this concoction, a centuries-old mistrust amongst the various sects and movements of islam in the region (huge piece), combined with the individual agendas of each arab nation (also a huge piece) and what exists is a recipe for complete disaster, taking place before our very eyes. just an example: remember that while saudi arabians and palestinians are both arab and both predominantly sunni, saudis generally view palestinians as the armpit of arab society. there is no real benefit for the saudis royals to GENUINELY, rather than symbolically, support that cause.

this all goes back to the haves and the have-nots. many of the ones that have, are doing what they can to make sure they continue to have and have more of it, and many of the ones that have-not are breathing in the air of manipulation and misguidedness, thinking that the reason they never have and won't ever have is because and only because of western policy. in truth, they need not look further than their own leadership -- clerical, secular, or otherwise.

terrorism, i promise, will not be a war won by going in with guns and bombs. this isn't WWII. the enemy isn't in uniform or in control of a single nation with its ships and tanks and planes. one approach might be to put policies into practice that do not give leaders in the region the opportunity to hord national wealth, creating such a massive poverty divide. i promise that the guy with a good job, good education, the means by which to provide and care for his family will not resort to terrorism. but the guy who has nothing to live for, no food to feed his family, no concept of self-worth is more primed to break under the false promises and lies of parasites living amongst him.

[rockit1st]

You, are part of the reason why this country is going down the tubes. This "liberal" vs" conservative" partisan BULLSHIT that you all cannot get past, is what ties us up in STUPID issues like flag burning, gay marriage and VETOING stem cell research when we have BIGGER ISSUES going unaddressed.

" especially w/ a liberal" ....I'm not EVEN a liberal, and that is such a disgusting ignorant remark it makes me want to vomit. Look around you, the "conservatives" are in charge..you think these results are things to be PROUD OF, so much so that you can point fingers at LIBERALS??? Wake up, please. Do you even know what LIBERAL means? Most conservatives don't even know what CONSERVATISM is nowadays :rolleyes: Maybe I expect too much.

Are you so ignorant as to think all liberals are wrong, all conservatives are right? Christ help this country.:rolleyes:

No its people like you who disgust me. The nonsense you ramble on is quite hysterical. You are as liberal as they come. :wallbang

[ghb]

Talk to some of the people who lived through the cold war, when they hid under their desks in school thinking any second the commie russians were going to nuke them. Or the people who lived through Pearl Harbor, and saw the hate/distrust of Japanese after.

Now we're attending the g8 summit in russia and it is our ally along with Japan being a MAJOR world player/business partner.

I'm not saying I think peace w/ fanatical , radical islamists is likely...I'm saying the people who JOIN them, follow them, are driven to extremism SOMEHOW. There are ways we can affect THAT, there are mistakes we can learn from...and try to create an environment that DOESN'T create extremism, terrorists, and a tone of hatred. You will n ever have control 100%, but you have to do what you can- people are people, and they aren't BORN this way, they're made. Figure some of that out, and you stand a better chance later on.



They're driven to extremism through their mosques, their immans, their teachings, their parents. No one is to blame but them themselves. It's not that hard to figure out, their false prophet mohammed was a war monger, they follow suit through his teachings, kill or convert is all they know & it will be all that they know.

Ever notice how a lot of islamo-fascist activities increase on the weekends, they come out of their mosques like rabid pigs after listening to the sermons. Wait til August 22nd (I believe that's the date) when they think the ascension of mohammed is to take place, Iran is saying this will only happen if armagedon is created.

[Defekted]

the greatest desparity in the arab world that fuels the terrorist-engine is the gorge between the haves and the have-nots. terrorist organizers, the brains behind the carnage, are very much a part of the haves or are hand-picked and hand-fed by the haves. the ones carrying out the acts are part of the have-nots, who have been raised in such desolate and decrepid conditions where the blame for the harsh reality around them have been molded into a great big finger pointing towards western policy and involvement. these conditions and accusations are not make-believe. our shit has stunk up the middle-east for a long time, and because those conditions existed, in which to promote such a great divide between rich and poor in arab countries, terrorism has a piece of what it needs to flourished. the exercise of western policy in the region has not been just. money spent buying oil or trading arms in the region has enabled regimes to get richer and the unwillingness of those regimes to enact programs and policies to promote positive progress of their infrastructure has marginalized a large number of inhabitants. it has pushed them so far to brink of insustainence that people have become desperate for change. BUT, keep in mind, while still not at the heart of the matter, that is only just a piece. now, add to this concoction, a centuries-old mistrust amongst the various sects and movements of islam in the region (huge piece), combined with the individual agendas of each arab nation (also a huge piece) and what exists is a recipe for complete disaster, taking place before our very eyes. just an example: remember that while saudi arabians and palestinians are both arab and both predominantly sunni, saudis generally view palestinians as the armpit of arab society. there is no real benefit for the saudis royals to GENUINELY, rather than symbolically, support that cause.

this all goes back to the haves and the have-nots. many of the ones that have, are doing what they can to make sure they continue to have and have more of it, and many of the ones that have-not are breathing in the air of manipulation and misguidedness, thinking that the reason they never have and won't ever have is because and only because of western policy. in truth, they need not look further than their own leadership -- clerical, secular, or otherwise.

terrorism, i promise, will not be a war won by going in with guns and bombs. this isn't WWII. the enemy isn't in uniform or in control of a single nation with its ships and tanks and planes. one approach might be to put policies into practice that do not give leaders in the region the opportunity to hord national wealth, creating such a massive poverty divide. i promise that the guy with a good job, good education, the means by which to provide and care for his family will not resort to terrorism. but the guy who has nothing to live for, no food to feed his family, no concept of self-worth is sure to break under the false promises and lies of parasites in their midst.


I couldnt have said it better myself. You are dangerously close to becoming a terrorist sympathizer :rolleyes:

[ShaE]

:cheer

:lostit
I'm on vacation from work this week, reading tons of shit I haven't had time to catch up on, so unfortunately I expect there'll be a lot more purple posts than usual :shuffle lol

[Defekted]

They're driven to extremism through their mosques, their immans, their teachings, their parents. No one is to blame but them themselves. It's not that hard to figure out, their false prophet mohammed was a war monger, they follow suit through his teachings, kill or convert is all they know & it will be all that they know.

Ever notice how a lot of islamo-fascist activities increase on the weekends, they come out of their mosques like rabid pigs after listening to the sermons. Wait til August 22nd (I believe that's the date) when they think the ascension of mohammed is to take place, Iran is saying this will only happen if armagedon is created.

Like rabid pigs? you are one racist fuck, its amazing the shit you post doesnt get you banned..... if I were to type the equivalent against jews id be outta here before I hit 'submit reply'

you need to stop trying to sound like your idol Sean Hannity with your 'islamo-facist' term and start to try to put together a cohesive paragraph that proves a point and not the ultra right wing garbage you have been posting relentlessly

[ShaE]

No its people like you who disgust me. The nonsense you ramble on is quite hysterical. You are as liberal as they come. :wallbang

:heart Nonsense and rambling.

Pick up a book, do the world a favor. Learn that "conservative and liberal" are not good and bad by connotation respectively.

[darius]

They're driven to extremism through their mosques, their immans, their teachings, their parents. No one is to blame but them themselves. It's not that hard to figure out, their false prophet mohammed was a war monger, they follow suit through his teachings, kill or convert is all they know & it will be all that they know.

Ever notice how a lot of islamo-fascist activities increase on the weekends, they come out of their mosques like rabid pigs after listening to the sermons. Wait til August 22nd (I believe that's the date) when they think the ascension of mohammed is to take place, Iran is saying this will only happen if armagedon is created.

where are getting this crap??? Mohammed was no false prophet. your first paragraph is ironic in that its the same type of regurgitation i'd expect to hear from a racist pastor in the heartland or a hardened hasidic (sp??) rabbi. c'mon, go study your history and read about how the world was in the 5th or 6th century. go read the koran for yourself and draw your own conclusions instead of respewing something you got from a website. it wouldn't be the first time that someone honed in on 1 or 2 phrases out of the koran and took it out of context -- lo and behold, you're all of the sudden an expert on theology.

[ghb]

Like rabid pigs? you are one racist fuck, its amazing the shit you post doesnt get you banned..... if I were to type the equivalent against jews id be outta here before I hit 'submit reply'

you need to stop trying to sound like your idol Sean Hannity with your 'islamo-facist' term and start to try to put together a cohesive paragraph that proves a point and not the ultra right wing garbage you have been posting relentlessly



To be honest, I don't even listen to Sean Hannity, he's a little too lefty for me.
Ok I'll call them islamo-nazis, better?
I call them as I see them, people (I use that term very loosely) who dedicate their whole existance to killing others who do not believe what they believe are not viewed as humans in my eyes. Funny calling me a racist while hezbollah is calling for the death of Jews but you sit there & defend their murderous actions. Way to sugar coat your racism, but let me guess "I had a Jew in my class once, I can't be racist".
People in glass houses.....

[Defekted]

your first paragraph is ironic in that its the same type of regurgitation i'd expect to hear from a racist pastor in the heartland or a hardened hasidic (sp??) rabbi.

nothing is ironic about that, he has the same idiotic thought process as the two above mentioned examples.... actually probably less, cause those two examples are at least LEADING a congregation of sorts, i dont think this kid has that talent... so maybe a level less

[ShaE]

They're driven to extremism through their mosques, their immans, their teachings, their parents. No one is to blame but them themselves. It's not that hard to figure out, their false prophet mohammed was a war monger, they follow suit through his teachings, kill or convert is all they know & it will be all that they know.

Ever notice how a lot of islamo-fascist activities increase on the weekends, they come out of their mosques like rabid pigs after listening to the sermons. Wait til August 22nd (I believe that's the date) when they think the ascension of mohammed is to take place, Iran is saying this will only happen if armagedon is created.

No one is denying those sources of extremism on their end, and its roots THERE...but you completely ignore the aspects of OUR intervention into some world affairs, disregard for other nations, and economic policies that FOSTER this hatred that ALREADY EXISTED in them.

I'm saying some of the things we've done and do make an already bad situation WORSE- we COMPOUND the problem...and we ought to consider how we can change shit ON OUR END b/c we obviously cannot change shit on theirs.

[ShaE]

No its people like you who disgust me. The nonsense you ramble on is quite hysterical. You are as liberal as they come. :wallbang

Oh, on and on a side note..are you actually going to ADDRESS/elaborate on any of the points I made to you , epecially about partisan bullshit fucking up our country?? Or are you just going to make your stupid " nonsense, rambling, bla bla" remarks?

Very englightening argument :agree

[Defekted]

To be honest, I don't even listen to Sean Hannity, he's a little too lefty for me.
Ok I'll call them islamo-nazis, better?
I call them as I see them, people (I use that term very loosely) who dedicate their whole existance to killing others who do not believe what they believe are not viewed as humans in my eyes. Funny calling me a racist while hezbollah is calling for the death of Jews but you sit there & defend their murderous actions. Way to sugar coat your racism, but let me guess "I had a Jew in my class once, I can't be racist".
People in glass houses.....

Sean Hannity too lefty? lol .... at least you got me to smile, a first.

how sheltered are you man? are you actually from New York? Im amazed how people can be so racist, so close minded, so reactionary with their words, but live in a city that is a melting pot of every color, religion, and ethnicity.... go home and take the plates off your car IMMEDIATELY! chop chop.

[darius]

i just take it very personally offensive when someone insults any of the Divine Prophets, be it Abraham, Krishna, Buddha, Moses, Zoroaster, Christ, Mohammed, The Bab, Baha'u'llah. They were all remarkable beings sent to convey God's Will to humanity -- each Dispensation promoting the laws and teachings for that age/era in our development.

[Leon]

Like rabid pigs? you are one racist fuck, its amazing the shit you post doesnt get you banned..... if I were to type the equivalent against jews id be outta here before I hit 'submit reply'

Reading comprehension was not your strength in school?

Allow me to clarify for the poster you are calling a racist fuck:


Ever notice how a lot of islamo-fascist activities increase on the weekends, they come out of their mosques like rabid pigs after listening to the sermons.

See who he targeted? A selection of people who happen to be Muslims.

Unless, of course, you believe all Muslims are the same or that there isn't a movement from many terrorist organizations to conquer as much as they can? What would you call it? Nice people? Nice Muslims who have followed THE Book?

Before throwing names around, take a look at what the person writes first.

[Micha]

Oh, on and on a side note..are you actually going to ADDRESS/elaborate on any of the points I made to you , epecially about partisan bullshit fucking up our country?? Or are you just going to make your stupid " nonsense, rambling, bla bla" remarks?

Very englightening argument :agree

Seriously thats exactly what i was thinking :guitar

[Defekted]

Reading comprehension was not your strength in school?

Allow me to clarify for the poster you are calling a racist fuck:



See who he targeted? A selection of people who happen to be Muslims.

Unless, of course, you believe all Muslims are the same or that there isn't a movement from many terrorist organizations to conquer as much as they can? What would you call it? Nice people? Nice Muslims who have followed THE Book?

Before throwing names around, take a look at what the person writes first.

give me a break bro, top trying to split straws....you know exactly what he ment... he is talking about the footage we all see of THE MASSES that leave saturday or sunday prayer and yell to the skies in protest to whatever the "issue of the day is"

footage we have all seen time and time again.....

these are the rabid pigs he is talking about, not the one or two terrorist islamo facists that are strapping bombs on their chests..... he is talking about the entire raging islamic world, the millions upon millions....

r-a-c-i-s-t f-u-c-k

[Defekted]

of course you would rush to defend him since you are a liberal in our midsts... lmao

such a joke, i still cant get over you calling yourself a liberal

[Leon]

IF he is including all Muslims, by all means. I have not seen that in his posts, ok? Neither have you. So for now, you are ass-u-me. Or making an ass out of you and me.

If you are wrong, then you should revisit the clinic for Dionne Warwick and her Psychic Friends course.

[ShaE]

Seriously thats exactly what i was thinking :guitar

At least I told him WHY I thought his view was full of shit, in clear detail :)
People resort to 5 year old insults when they have jack shit to back up their nonexistent arguments...let's give him some time to google/wikipedia some of the issues I mentioned, and put together some semblance of an argument...I got time :knitter

[ghb]

Sean Hannity too lefty? lol .... at least you got me to smile, a first.

how sheltered are you man? are you actually from New York? Im amazed how people can be so racist, so close minded, so reactionary with their words, but live in a city that is a melting pot of every color, religion, and ethnicity.... go home and take the plates off your car IMMEDIATELY! chop chop.

I'm amazed that people who live in NY & witnessed attacks by the "islamo-nazis/facists" firsthand & know people directly affected by this, still sit here & defend their actions, their way of thinking & blame the US for this & then cry when terrorists are killed. Spare me the al quada & hezbollah aren't the same, they have the exact same enemy they're trying to kill.

[ghb]

give me a break bro, top trying to split straws....you know exactly what he ment... he is talking about the footage we all see of THE MASSES that leave saturday or sunday prayer and yell to the skies in protest to whatever the "issue of the day is"


Which is usually "How many jews can we kill this weekend" or "how many of our children can we teach to make bombs by Monday" in the minds of the radicals.

[ShaE]

Poli Sci 101, all ignorant people please pay attn, all those skittish of long posts, skim on by...don't want you to hurt your brain :) Rockit1st, I'm eagerly awaiting your reply as to why liberals, as described here, are so "disgusting".

Obviously neither side ( lib/conservative, dem/rep) has it ENTIRELY right or one of them would've fixed ALL our nation's problems by now. Any logical person realizes that complex problems are not simply solved and often require a COMBINATION of ideals and COMPROMISE on both ends. Newsflash: A bit of liberalism and a BIT of conservatism is the ONLY way to go in the future. As long as our retard, power hungry, infighting gov't fails to realize this we're stuck in the bullshit we're currently mired in. The MAIN diff. between liberal/ conservative is the first is SUPPORTIVE of change, while the latter is RESISTANT.


Someone please tell me what is INHERENTLY WRONG with being a "liberal"?:

Definitions of liberal:

- showing or characterized by broad-mindedness; "a broad political stance";
- "generous and broad sympathies";"tolerant of his opponent's opinions"
having political or social views
- favoring reform and progress
tolerant of change; not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or tradition
a person who
-favors a political philosophy of progress and reform and the protection of civil liberties
a person who favors an economic theory of laissez-faire and self-regulating markets
-Liberalism is a political current embracing several historical and present-day ideologies that claim defense of individual liberty as the purpose of government. It typically favors the right to dissent from orthodox tenets or established authorities in political or religious matters. In this respect, it is sometimes held in contrast to conservatism. ...
- Political viewpoint with origins in Western Europe during the 19th century; stressed limited state interference in individual life, representation of propertied people in government; urged importance of constitutional rule and parliaments.
-Political view that supports gradual change and government spending to assist lower classes in society.
Traditionally, the word liberal means to be open to new ideas and tolerant of others. To be liberal politically, is to emphasize political and economic freedom. They tend to favor gradual changes in society and promote government programs to solve problems.

OH THOSE HORRIBLE LIBERALS!!!

In addition, what is wrong w/ conservatives: ( besides being frighteningly resistant to change, which is inevitable)

Definitions of conservative:

resistant to change
opposed to liberal reforms
cautious: avoiding excess;
- in politics, a loosely defined term indicating adherence to one or more of a family of attitudes, including respect for tradition and authority and resistance to wholesale or sudden changes.

-people who generally like to uphold current conditions and oppose changes. Conservatives are often referred to as the right wing.

-Any shade of political opinion from moderately right-of-center to firmly right-of-center. Of the two major parties in the United States, the Republican Party is generally considered to be the more conservative. “Political” conservatives in the United States usually support free-market economic principles and low taxes, and distrust federal, as opposed to state and local, government power. “Cultural” conservatives may be opposed to abortion or to the excesses of popular media.:LOL Bush missed that memo

-The political view that things should stay the way things are. Belief in little or no socialized spending.- A conservative is a person who in general opposes social change.
-To be conservative politically is to respect traditional institution and distrust government solutions to problems.

Yet the gov't is MORE INVOLVED in our daily lives than EVER before. Yay conservatives!:applaud

[Defekted]

I'm amazed that people who live in NY & witnessed attacks by the "islamo-nazis/facists" firsthand & know people directly affected by this, still sit here & defend their actions, their way of thinking & blame the US for this & then cry when terrorists are killed. Spare me the al quada & hezbollah aren't the same, they have the exact same enemy they're trying to kill.

I never ONCE, as my boy from outkast said, EVA EVA, EVA EVA, defended al qeada.... and I dont support Hezbollah or any ultra religious party in Lebanon, and yes there is a difference between the two. The European Union, South America, Africa, Russia, East Asia, the penguins in Antartica, and most reasonable people here in the states also realize there is a difference between the two

[ghb]

I never ONCE, as my boy from outkast said, EVA EVA, EVA EVA, defended al qeada.... and I dont support Hezbollah or any ultra religious party in Lebanon, and yes there is a difference between the two. The European Union, South America, Africa, Russia, East Asia, the penguins in Antartica, and most reasonable people here in the states also realize there is a difference between the two


Their goal is all the same to me. Therefore I consider them the same enemy. But since you quoted some Outkast, you must be telling the truth.

[Defekted]

Their goal is all the same to me. Therefore I consider them the same enemy.

:paranoid well if hannity is too lefty for you, im sure you have alot of enemies :paranoid

[ghb]

:paranoid well if hannity is too lefty for you, im sure you have alot of enemies :paranoid

Nah, just terrorists & their supporters, that's all.

[Micha]

Rockit1st, I'm eagerly awaiting your reply as to why liberals, as described here, are so "disgusting".



Maybe it's because Bill O'Reilly says so..

[Micha]

Nah, just terrorists & their supporters, that's all.

I agree with you on that. But not that Defekted is a terrorist supporter if that is what you are implying?

[ShaE]

Their goal is all the same to me. Therefore I consider them the same enemy. But since you quoted some Outkast, you must be telling the truth.


So let me get this straight...it's the GOAL not the MEANS to the goal that matters? Let's say I don't think Israel has a right to exist, but I want it taken care of DIPLOMATICALLY, I want the land evacuated and resettled by "my" people who I feel are entitled to it. I'm not using terrorism, I'm not attacking anybody, I want Israel GONE and the land mine, but my methods are entirely humane and just.

Then imagine another group, with the same goal, but who uses terrorism, violence, kidnapping, and warfare to acquire the land and settle it.

They share the same goal, so they're the same? It makes NO DIFFERENCE to you the way they conduct themselves and methods they use?

[Defekted]

Nah, just terrorists & their supporters, that's all.

:paranoid
Yo the Palestinian guy who runs the little hotdog stand on 53rd and Lex wasnt there today, i usually get a pretzel on the way to the subway and was kinda annoyed, but now you got me thinking...... should i call homeland security?
:paranoid

[ShaE]

Maybe it's because Bill O'Reilly says so..

:LOL Maybe it's b/c he doesn't understand the meanings of the terms liberal/conservative and just buys into the "liberals are disgusting, pathetic human beings" RHETORIC so prevalent nowadays.

Jumping on bandwagons is so much easier than educating yourself . I, unlike him, see validity on BOTH sides, liberal and conservative. Oh well, I'm just a crazy rambler lol

[ShaE]

:paranoid
i usually get a pretzel on the way to the subway

Nobody better fuck with my pretzel dude. I could not live w/o my daily pretzel/subway fix :shuffle

[darius]

Which is usually "How many jews can we kill this weekend" or "how many of our children can we teach to make bombs by Monday" in the minds of the radicals.

just a random question, but exactly how many of these sermons have you had the privelege of sitting in on, or, at the very least, been privy to their transcripts?

[Defekted]

just a random question, but exactly how many of these sermons have you had the privelege of sitting in on, or, at the very least, been privy to their transcripts?

Bro, bro, bro ... stop reading into things..... you are TOTALLY jumping to conclusions and assuming things.... i use to think that too, but Leon, opened my eyes, and made me realize that GHB is just misunderstood... when he posts things that sound like sweeping generalizations of insults towards muslims and arabs, palestinians and lebanese, liberals, etc....its really a invitation for a level headed debate that are backed by facts that are taken from mainstream news sources....

[ghb]

just a random question, but exactly how many of these sermons have you had the privelege of sitting in on, or, at the very least, been privy to their transcripts?

I would hardly consider it a "privelege", but I have heard/read quite a few translated over the last few years as well as interviews with people who have sat in on those.

[ghb]

Yeah I guess we can at least look at it like that :rolleyes: I was watching Jay Leno last nite and one of his guests was talking about how we need to cease-fire right NOW



Do you even have a clue as to who "one of his guests was" just curious? It's also common knowledge who funds hezbollah.

[DINO nYc]

http://image.com.com/mp3/images/cover/200/dre400/e402/e40278003d1.jpg

I think DT should broker a cease fire and then start a monthly residency in a demilitarized zone between Israel and Lebanon. Muslims and Jews alike can take pills and dance their asses off. Fuck Kofi, I should be in charge of the UN.

[Micha]

Do you even have a clue as to who "one of his guests was" just curious? It's also common knowledge who funds hezbollah.

I guess i lack common knowledge. Enlighten me.

[ShaE]

I guess i lack common knowledge. Enlighten me.

If you're missing that piece of the puzzle, you're flying blind here.

Iran and Syria.
Check this out:


Assistance from abroad
Hezbollah allegedly receives financial and political assistance, as well as weapons and training, from the Islamic Republic of Iran[115]. The US estimates that Iran was giving Hezbollah about $60-$100 million per year in financial assistance but that assistance declined as other funding was secured, primarily from South America [116] [117]. Some estimates of Iran's aid are as high as $200-million annually.[118]

Mohammed Raad, at one time leader of Loyalty to the Resistance Bloc, said money from Iran came only through private charities to be used for health care, education and the support of war widows. Hezbollah's main sources of income, he said, are the party's investment portfolios and wealthy Shiites.[118]

Hezbollah has also received Iranian-supplied weaponry, including 11,500 missiles already in place in southern Lebanon. Three thousand Hezbollah militants have undergone training in Iran, which included guerilla warfare, firing missiles and rocket artillery, operating unmanned drones, marine warfare and conventional war operations. Finally, 50 pilots have been trained in Iran in the past two years.[119]

Mahmoud Ali Suleiman, the Hezbollah operative captured in August 2006 by the IDF for his role in the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border raid on July 12, admitted during his interrogation that he received weapons-training and religious instruction in Iran.[citation needed] He told his interrogators that he rode in a civilian car to Damascus, from where he flew to Iran. Other than the Russian-made Katyusha, Hezbollah's reported artillery cache is entirely Iranian-made.[citation needed]

On August 4, 2006, Jane's Defense Weekly, a defense industry magazine, reported that Hezbollah asked Iran for "a constant supply of weapons to support its operations against Israel" in the Israel-Lebanon conflict. The report cited Western diplomatic sources as saying that Iranian authorities promised Hezbollah a steady supply of weapons `"for the next stage of the confrontation". [120]

Iran long denied supplying Hezbollah with weapons[4][121], despite persistent reports to the contrary[122][123][120][124] However, "Mohtashami Pur, a one-time ambassador to Lebanon who currently holds the title of secretary-general of the 'Intifada conference,' told an Iranian newspaper that Iran transferred the missiles to the Shi'ite militia, adding that the organization has his country's blessing to use the weapons in defense of Lebanon".[125] The Israel Defence Forces regard Hezbollah as virtually an arm of the Iranian armed forces; a senior Israeli defence official told Jane's Defence Weekly that "we should consider that what we are facing in Lebanon is not a militia but rather a special forces brigade of the Iranian Army." [126]

Similar claims and denials regarding supply of weapons have been made with respect to Syria[127][4] [128][129] [130]

The U.S. Treasury Department has also accused Hezbollah of raising funds by counterfeiting U.S. currency.[131] Researchers at the American Naval War College claimed that Hezbollah raises $10-million annually in Paraguay,[132] which may, in some cases, be extorted.[131] Dr. Matthew Levitt told a committee of the US Senate that Hezbollah engages in a "wide variety of criminal enterprises" worldwide in order to raise funds.[133]

Money is also received from supporters abroad. Mohammed Hammoud was convicted in the United States for "violating a ban on material support of groups designated as terrorist organizations". The amount was USD 3,500, which Hammoud claimed was to "support Hezbollah's efforts to distribute books at schools and improve public water systems."[134]

Hezbollah claims to raise most of its money from donations. "It's no secret that Hezbollah receives financial help from Iran, but not from Syria," said Hezbollah spokesman Hussein Nabulsi.[6]

[drumaboy]

If you're missing that piece of the puzzle, you're flying blind here.

Iran and Syria.

waaaait a seond, you mean to tell me the country whose leader said wipe israel off the map is funding hezbollah?!?!?! well, i ask for clarification!!!! that peace loving group?!?! funded by modern day nazis?!?!?!

[Micha]

If you're missing that piece of the puzzle, you're flying blind here.

Iran and Syria.

I know this. Which is why i already asked why we are attacking Lebanon and not Iran/Syria?

[ShaE]

I know this. Which is why i already asked why we are attacking Lebanon and not Iran/Syria?

We? We aren't attacking anybody.
Israel is attacking Lebanon b/c that's where Hezbollah is based, and where it has it's military and political power...and THEY (hezbollah) are the ones who kidnapped the isreali soldiers which was the TRIGGER of this military engagement ( which we all know has far deeper roots). Lebanon is a fledgling democracy, ....IRAN on the other hand...do I even have to TELL you what attacking Iran would bring upon the world? It's a hotbed of fanaticism to say the least. Christ, why do you think Bush did a COMPLETE reversal of his "cowboy diplomacy" ?
We do not want to fuck with them, nobody wants to fuck with them ...PLUS SYRIA?? Can't you see how utterly retarded it'd be to attack two LARGER powers first? They're FUNDING hezbollah, but you go after THEM and not HEZBOLLAH and what the fuk is THAT gonna look like nevermind you'll be NECK DEEP in shit.

Put it this way, we sell arms to Israel, we give AID to Israel...we support Israel....say the Israelis had gone into lebanon and taken two hezbollah soldiers, as a response you'd suggest " why isn't hezbollah going after America???" b/c we're the funding/backing/support? " That really doesn't make sense.

[ShaE]

waaaait a seond, you mean to tell me the country whose leader said wipe israel off the map is funding hezbollah?!?!?! well, i ask for clarification!!!! that peace loving group?!?! funded by modern day nazis?!?!?!

That is INDEED my assertion, SIR! lol

[Micha]

We? We aren't attacking anybody.
Israel is attacking Lebanon b/c that's where Hezbollah is based, and where it has it's military and political power...and THEY (hezbollah) are the ones who kidnapped the isreali soldiers which was the TRIGGER of this military engagement ( which we all know has far deeper roots). Lebanon is a fledgling democracy, ....IRAN on the other hand...do I even have to TELL you what attacking Iran would bring upon the world? It's a hotbed of fanaticism to say the least. Christ, why do you think Bush did a COMPLETE reversal of his "cowboy diplomacy" ?
We do not want to fuck with them, nobody wants to fuck with them ...PLUS SYRIA?? Can't you see how utterly retarded it'd be to attack two LARGER powers first? They're FUNDING hezbollah, but you go after THEM and not HEZBOLLAH and what the fuk is THAT gonna look like nevermind you'll be NECK DEEP in shit.

Put it this way, we sell arms to Israel, we give AID to Israel...we support Israel....say the Israelis had gone into lebanon and taken two hezbollah soldiers, as a response you'd suggest " why isn't hezbollah going after America???" b/c we're the funding/backing/support? " That really doesn't make sense.



that is all i needed to know

thanks

[ShaE]

that is all i needed to know

thanks

I prob coulda summed it up with Iran/Syria= REALLY REALLY BAD news lol :shuffle

[Leon]

I prob coulda summed it up with Iran/Syria= REALLY REALLY BAD news lol

You are gonna love the CSPAN video in another thread then. :)

[Micha]

I prob coulda summed it up with Iran/Syria= REALLY REALLY BAD news lol :shuffle

Yeah so you would think we would want countries like Lebanon on our side. We should work on getting other countries on our side if these two countries are really really bad news. That should be a goal, not just to eliminate terrorists, but to figure out what country poses the greatest risk and to get the other countries on our side. Im starting to see where paranoia and bombs can be a deadly mix.

We can argue 9800 pages about whether or not Isreal was "justified" (a term used a lot around here) in bombing Lebanon. But I doubt anyone would argue that we've lost Lebanon's support in this war on terror. And that this is not a good thing, unless you just dont give a shit.

[ShaE]

Yeah so you would think we would want countries like Lebanon on our side. We should work on getting other countries on our side if these two countries are really really bad news. That should be a goal, not just to eliminate terrorists, but to figure out what country poses the greatest risk and to get the other countries on our side. Im starting to see where paranoia and bombs can be a deadly mix.

We can argue 9800 pages about whether or not Isreal was "justified" (a term used a lot around here) in bombing Lebanon. But I doubt anyone would argue that we've lost Lebanon's support in this war on terror. And that this is not a good thing, unless you just dont give a shit.


Lebanon's support in the war on terror? I'm really not all that broken up about the impact of that considering they couldn't even disarm and displace the terrorist party operating within their own nation. Really not going to be of much use to us. Of course fostering more enemies never HELPS, but Lebanon was never going to be the tipping point in us vs. terrorism.

That, I think, just mighta been Iraq.

[Micha]

Bump!

[metfan85]

That's what I would like to know, since I believe that peaceniks like Mishinka, during a need for war and defense, do more harm than good--especially to themselves.

If not for war, Mishinka would be speaking German and heiling Hitler or the "Rising Sun".

with the understanding this is a 2 year old post...

If Wilson listenend to the so-called peaceniks World War I would have ended in a truce and all the empires that peacefully co-existed for centuries would have survived. Instead the warmongers got us into an unnecessary war who's direct result was Hitler, Lenin and Mussolini coming into power, as well as Britain ending its 20 year alliance with the Japanese Empire, under the belief that her American cousins would be there for her.

[jameznyhc]

Damn shae used to make so much sense wtf happened to her lol ..